How Old is the Earth? Creation?

[Issachar]

AiG has a very interesting article today on dating methods concerning the age of rocks/fossils.

excerpt:

The team took samples of diabase, an igneous rock, and tested them using various radiometric dating techniques. If the dating methods are all objective and reliable, then they should give similar dates. The rocks were tested as whole-rock samples using K-Ar dating and also separated into individual minerals. The whole-rock and separated mineral samples allow a method known as isochron dating to be done. This method is supposed to eliminate the assumption that the initial concentration of the daughter element is zero.

The facts from the rock layers do not speak for themselves—they must be interpreted. The assumptions used to interpret the data influence the conclusion. Starting with the Bible produces different conclusions than starting with evolutionary reasoning.

Despite removing this assumption, the RATE team has shown that this method is not reliable. Dating the Cardenas Basalt, a layer near the bottom of Grand Canyon, and a volcanic layer from near the top of Grand Canyon produced an amazing result. Based on the law of superposition, the lower layers in the canyon should be older than the upper layers (unless there was an intrusion or other event that changed the order). Using isochron dating from a respected lab, the lower rocks were dated at 1.07 billion years and the upper, and presumably younger rocks, were dated at 1.34 billion years. There is an obvious discordance (disagreement) in the data.

source

Issachar, thinks that the available data best fits the literal, six day creation model .. with nothing but God in existence before those six days.

[Guest]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

with nothing but God in existence before those six days.

______

WOW!!! now we have something else to disagree on

imvho and based on lots of very scholarly scholars ; Earth and Man were created to resolve Satan's fall and the angelic conflict---and because GOD wanted a family that would choose to love HIM.

This puts the creation of the angels and all the other created beings some"time" in the far eternity before creation ......

[M from M]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

imo, this Universe is appx. # 6014 Years old from the Creation , Day of


Adam. ( our Gregorian Calendar name for the month = Sept )

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Lewis! What do you mean something else?! You disagreed with me on something else?

Something no one ever seems to answer when they believe the fall of Lucifer predated man is Genesis 1:31.

Genesis 1:
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

There is no way to legitimately say that "everything" means something other than .. especially less than .. well, everything since that is what the whole first chapter is about. So if everything was "very good" at the end of the six day creation, there could not have been a devil or sin or death, etc., yet.

Then in the gospels, Jesus mentions this ... and remember, He not only was there at the beginning so is an eye witness that can be perfectly trusted, but IS the One that created everything:

Mark 10:
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

imvho and based on lots of very scholarly scholars ; Earth and Man were created to resolve Satan's fall and the angelic conflict---

"scholarly scholars" are nice sometime but they can't come close to having the same knowledge as God so maybe you could post a scripture or two showing "why Earth and Man were created ...?"

Psalms 33:
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Why were the sun, moon and stars made during the six day creation account? Day four to be exact. Well, we know why they were created because our Lord tells us .. but I mean to ask, why then? The evolutionists believe the earth and the other planets formed looong after the stars which is backwards from the written account of the One who was there.

I'll underline the "why":

Genesis 1:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Psalms 8:
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Also see Psalms 102, 136, 104 and others.

I post this more towards any would be passer-by evolutionists:

Job 38:
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I think v.7 has a special significance to this discussion. The "sons of God" here references angels and similar (from my pitifully limited perspective) beings; those created directly by the hand of God. The passage is speaking of the creation of the earth. We have that account also in Genesis 1. But in v.7 just above, all the sons of God are shouting for joy. That "all the sons of God" would have to include Lucifer when the earth was made because it says "all." So he couldn't have become satan, the devil .. the dragon; yet.

And here we also see the earth and ALL that is in it, lumped together in the creation with all the heavens and all that is in them:

Nehemiah 9:
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Now I haven't cited any "scholarly scholars" yet (I might though) but I have brought some scriptures into the discussion. I think it is fair to discuss them.

Issachar, a long ago former evolutionist ..

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

These are "scholars" to be sure. They do get into the techy side of things but there is enough for us lay people so it is worth a listen.

Five parts of five of a RATE lecture (see post #1 above) at a "Steeling the Mind" conference:











Issachar

[Guest]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Genesis 1:31.
exactly
before Satan's fall everything GOD created was good--but Satan had free will....
later on;
Before Man's fall everything GOD created was good-- but man has free will....

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Lewis, do you lie awake at night thinking up ways to confuse your Ohio friend? What in the world are you saying?

The Genesis 1:31 verse is saying that when God had finished the creation; man last, that he looked at everything he had created and declared it "very good." So there was no devil yet because God would not call the devil, "very good."

Issachar, wondering if there is a "scratch the ol' noggin'" emoticon?

[Guest]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Lewis, do you lie awake at night thinking up ways to confuse your Ohio friend

of course

perhaps I should have said:

before Satan's fall in eternity past every angelic creature GOD created was good--but Satan had free will....
later on;
Before Man's fall everything GOD created was good-- but man has free will....

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Well, I think I know what you're saying ... but I don't understand it. It seems like you may be sticking to the fall of Lucifer to become satan, as being before man was created? The Bible doesn't tell us when angels and seraphim and cherubim were created. As I quoted above from the gospel of Mark, Jesus, who was there from the beginning, said that back at the beginning of the creation, he made man; male and female. That beginning is the six day account, we know, by the mentioning of man be made.

Did you have an opportunity to read the article in the first post and/or listen to the videos I included in this thread? There is no (natural) valid (truly scientific) way of knowing the age of rocks, stars, planets ... Personally I will trust the truly scientific method of born again scientists over the "findings" of men who reject God and believe things like "In the beginning, was hydrogen .." (Sagan; probably quoting Harlow Shapley: "'Some piously record "In the beginning God", but I say "In the beginning hydrogen".')

Sagan sets the foundation of the entire Cosmos series here, at 3:06 to 3:11.

EDIT: Unfortunately, this video clip has been blocked in North America. But the main point of it was to show Carl Sagan saying, "In the beginning, was hydrogen .."



At 4:13 to 4:23 Mr. Sagan mentions what our future depends on; it's not God, it's ourselves and our understanding. Carl Sagan's mannerism, speech, intellectual ability .. really drew me in 30 some years ago as I sat through the original Cosmos series. He's since gone on to a place where he knows that hydrogen is not what is at the beginning.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

I still have dial up so cant do video cant afford faster.

In eternity past GOD was in HIS eternal abode where the angels are..
imho it stands to reason the angels were there with him in this timeless eternity past. If GOD had created angels during creation week it seems HE would have mentioned it.

besides;Creation week was about ---well--- creation its not about the parallel continuum of eternity.

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

imho it stands to reason the angels were there with him in this timeless eternity past. If GOD had created angels during creation week it seems HE would have mentioned it.

In post #4 I quoted Job 38:1-7. v.7 says that the angels were there when God created the world .. and sang and shouted for joy. (pssst .. don't tell the Baptists that they shouted for joy. ) So apparently their creation was prior to the six day creation week. How long before? We don't know .. but there are possible clues ..

Hebrews 1:
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

In v.14 we see that they are ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. Only guessing .. but they weren't around long before the creation/fall of man? Of course they could have other functions as well. But this passage mentions just this one.

Revelation 5 mentions angels worshipping God, in heaven. But it's not clear to me if they've done that "in eternity past" or if that is future, after all is said and done .. that is, after there is a new heaven and a new earth, after the millennium ....

Revelation 5:
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I had more but the dinner bell just rang ... later. And Thank you very much Lewis for having this discussion with me so far.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Ok .. this is interesting; at least, to me.

Is Revelation 12:4 talking about the fall of the angels? I always thought it was. Does anyone have another interpretation?

Revelation 12:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

What is interesting to me is that aparently, when the angels rebelled .. 1/3 of them .. the earth had already been created; the first day. More reason for my belief that all was well in all of creation still when God said it was all very good in Genesis 1:31.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

For anyone interested for future reference ... In post #4 I quoted the first three verses of John 1 to reinforce that Jesus did all the creating. I just want to add to that with a passage from Colossians in case anyone needs to use this someday.

Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Issachar .. loves to wonder about things ..

[Guest]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

Revelation 12:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

my understanding is that the woman is Israel and the child Jesus......
and the fallen angels are cast to the Earth in the middle of the Tribulation period

[Issachar]

Re: How Old is the Earth? Creation?

yes .. I too believe the woman to be Israel and Jesus is the child. I take it as a history (at least .. there's probably more, knowing God. )

But, what are you saying about the fallen angels? More? Perhaps a second batch? I always believed (not necessarily correctly) that the angels fell, to the earth, and at some point (I don't see where the Word says 'when.') were bound in chains, reserved unto the day of judgement.

2 Peter 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; ...

Here, "hell" is translated from the Greek word tartaroo or tartarus or tartaros.

G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

Jude 1:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So it seems that the fallen angels are not out and about; but bound up in chains in "tartaros."

So to say "... the fallen angels are cast to the Earth in the middle of the Tribulation period.", is that there will be more?

Issachar