Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Part III

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

To keep the conversation going, I post below a short little piece dealing with the Niqqud vowelization and punctuation system used in Hebrew. Many readers will know this system already. I really would appreciate your insights into the question posed about divine inspiration. I will then apply this information to Ezekiel's passage.

A simple humorous example of the dilemma posed to translators regarding implied punctuation would be the following (courtesy of Don the Baptist):

lethimthatstolestealnomorelethimworktheworksofrigh teousness

Providing punctuation we could arrive at two different conclusions:
Let him that stole steal no more! Let him work the works of righteousness! OR…..
Let him that stole, steal! No more let him work the works of righteousness!

Niqqud System in the Tanach

Many people are already aware that the Jewish Tanach originally was written down without vowels, punctuation or capitalization. What appears in the oldest scrolls is simply a long string of Hebrew consonants. Sometime around the 9th century, a group called the Masoretes employed a system called Niqqud. This involved assigning small dots and other marks above, below and among the Hebrew consonants to indicate the “traditionally accepted” vowels and punctuation. In many cases there existed only one word in Hebrew for a particular series of consonants so the word intended by the original author is obvious. In others, the context of the passage was used to assign appropriate vowels. There is some debate regarding the divine inspiration of this system. Did inspiration extend to a unique set of vowels or is there the possibility of alternative scriptural texts, reflecting different vowel choices?

A simple example from the Scriptures of these multiple alternatives based on different vowels occurs in the book of Daniel chapter 5. On the occasion of a drunken feast hosted by Belshazzar, king of Babylon, fingers appear and draw out a message on the wall. When none of the court advisors can decipher the message, Daniel is called. It is interesting how he makes use of different possible vowel combinations in his answer to the king. For example with the word samekh-resh-pey, “p-r-s”. Daniel refers to “peras” meaning divided, then to “Paras” meaning Persia. These words with niqqud notations are shown below. (Note that Hebrew reads from right to left.) A similar approach is used for mene/mina and tekel/tekal.
author note: sorry the actual Hebrew letters with niqqud notations are apparently not supported by the site what is shown below is what the computer does! But you get the "point". Can anyone suggest how to display Hebrew letters?)


sr@P= peres
sr^P= peras
sr^P* paras/Persia

In considering the correct vowels to insert in the original Hebrew writings the modern translator is struck with a difficult task. Is there only one proper context? Perhaps God intended different vowels to apply at different times, or perhaps a range of alternatives are all valid at the same time and together provide additional breadth and depth. What do you think?

[Lay it to Heart]

U.S. 'Very Surprised' at Extent of Israeli Concessions

U.S. 'Very Surprised' at Extent of Israeli Concessions

(IsraelNN.com) Israeli diplomatic sources said Sunday that the American delegation was very surprised at the extent of Israeli concessions to the Fatah-controlled "Palestinian Authority" (PA) announced by Defense Minister Ehud Barak. However, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was quick to say that they were not enough, and vowed to monitor Israel's execution of its promises.

The latest Israeli concessions to the PA in Judea and Samaria include permission for construction of two new Arab neighborhoods in the Ramallah area, with a total of 5,000 to 8,000 housing units. In addition, about 50 closed roads will be opened in Samaria, thus enabling vehicular traffic between Jenin, Tulkarm, Kalkilya and Ramallah. The permanent IDF checkpoint in the Rimonim area will be removed.

...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125731

It is possible this removal will allow peacekeepers to move quicker in the peace implementation.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

LITH: I have a map showing all the roads in the West Bank with status as to which are "closed", "restricted" etc. We have driven through there numerous times. Life is tough on people who do not have yellow Israeli licence plates (PA are blue, Jordanian are green) and there are often extremely long lines of these folks waiting to get past checkpoints. For Israel to remove so many checkpoints and open up vehicular traffic flow means they are more vulnerable to terror strikes...unless they get "third party assistance" with this. The BIG problem will be dealing with the 65,000 Israeli "settlers" who live on the wrong side of the security barrier and stand to be abandoned in some PA state arrangements. PS There is a huge US army logistics base 15 minutes from the airport and snuggled right against the green line (border with the west bank) On my last trip to israel I would have driven in for a closer look. It was very quiet and the signs that said "live fire zone" were a bit of a distraction.

Did anyone notice in my post above that the very word Daniel used in speaking with Belshazzar was Peres..."divided" Oh that's the name of the President of Israel, Shimon Peres, the champion "divider". God has a way of transcending history in a way that is down right awesome!

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

Thanks everyone for posting all this news and sharing your insights. That is amazing how Peres means divided.

It just really is upsetting to see what is being demanded of Israel..and they are doing it. I wasn't happy either to see how they opened up all those check points. It's going to get out of control..maybe sooner rather than later. Terrorists will definitely use it to their advantage. If they missed a few odds and ends when the wall was down..now is their opportunity to get really stocked up head:

[Lay it to Heart]

In Less Than A Day

Rice to blame for attempted attack against Jews?
By Aaron Klein

JERUSALEM – The removal of a series of Israeli anti-terror roadblocks yesterday was overseen directly by the U.S. and was carried out under heavy pressure from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, defense officials in Jerusalem told WND.
...
In yesterday's incident, an Israeli man shot and killed a Palestinian armed with a knife after he approached the Israeli and a teenager at a popular hitchhiking stop between the West Bank Jewish communities of Shiloh and Eli, about 20 miles from Jerusalem.
...
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?f...w&pageId=60514

Also see http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125763

As soon as Israel provided concessions they were taken advantage of.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

Study of Ezekiel 38/39 in light of the Niqqud system

Resources used for this project include Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as well as Goodrick and Kohlenberger’s NIV Exhaustive Concordance. Strong reference numbers will be preceded by S whereas we will use GK for Goodrick and Kohlenberger.

In verse two of chapter 38 we encounter the Hebrew word “rosh” which in the NIV is translated as “chief”. (GK 8031) Of 603 occurences in the Tanach the most common translations of this word are head (217) heads (124) top (45) chief (33) leader (19) first (16) tops (10 ) and beginning (8). It is noteworthy that this same word with identical niqqud points is translated 12 additional times as poison, bitterness, gall, and poisonous weed. On one occasion Rosh is given as the name of an individual (Gen 46:21) and never as a place.

Strong informs us that “rosh” (S7218) comes from a primitive Hebrew word (S7493) relating to “undulate, shake, quake, tremble”. An application to the human anatomy implies “shaking the head”, hence highest or chiefest. In English we might refer to someone as a “mover and a shaker”. This is very interesting given the global earthquake that follows later in the passage reflecting the judgment of God. S7219 is translated as poison plant, venom, poison, similar to GK above. Strong also provides us with S7389 “ray sh” meaning “poverty” is derived from S7326 meaning “destitute poorman”.

Let us now move on to “prince”. In Hebrew this is the word “nasi” (GK5954) which occurs 131 times. The main translations are leader (43) leaders (29) prince (29) princes (10) chief (10) chiefs (3) ruler (3) and rulers (2). Strong translates this word S5387 as “exalted one”, also a rising mist. This is derived from S5375 meaning “to lift” with a variety of applications. Strong also indicates that S5376 means “carry away, make insurrection, take”. Putting rosh and nasi together gives us something equivalent to “commander in chief” in English.

Using exactly the same letters as above with the shin dot on the right instead of left yields “nasha” GK5957. The various meanings of this word include creditor (3), borrowed, creditors, debtor, in debt, loan made, make a loan, while for S5378 we have “dun for debt” and “giver of usury”. Secondary meanings for this same word GK5858 involve “deceive (4), let deceive (4), are deceived (3) and take by surprise (1). The Strong parallel word is S5377 meaning “lead astray, delude, deceive and seduce”

We now turn our attention to the Hebrew word “m-sh-ch” translated simply as Meshech (GK5434) with 10 references in the Tanach. These refer to a person Meshech as in Gen 10:2 or a city/people as in Psalms 120:5 and Ezek 27:13 where trading is involved. However there are an additional 36 times (GK5432) where the same three letters are translated as mashach, meaning to “draw, drag away, dragged off, drags away, drags off, draw along, drawn, lead the way, led, lure, pull in, pulled, pulled up”. This is amazing in light of the reference in the passage to Gog himself being dragged with hooks in the jaw. In addition GK5433 “meshech” is used two times in the Tanach to mean “price”, and “seed to sow”.

Strong identifies Meshech (S4902) as a son of Japheth. He also identifies S4901 with the same letters meaning “precious possession/ price” as in “seed corn” coming from S4900 mashach meaning to draw with a variety of applications (as in draw along, draw out, etc.)

Another word occurring in this same verse is l “t-b-l”. This word is translated as Tubal 18 times (GK9317). It refers to a person, place, city or people in these cases. However in 36 places (GK9315) these same letters are translated “world (30), earth, world’s”. A further two times the same letters are used for “perversion” as in bestiality. Strong (S8422) gives us the person/place Tubal, also (S8398) for “the moist/inhabited earth, the globe, and its inhabitants” and (S8397) for unnatural sexual acts.

Magog is identified in Genesis 10:2 as a son of Japheth. It consists of the word Gog g-w-g with the letter mem in front. So Magog can mean either a person/city/people or simply be read as “the place of Gog”. It is noteworthy that in ancient times physical Magog, Meshech and Tubal were all located north of Israel in the area which today is modern Turkey.

Summary so far:

In this study of four Hebrew words we have discovered that there are a variety of alternative translations possible. I suggest that if we consider all of them we get a much clearer picture of the author’s original intention(s). These tie in very closely to the narrative about Gog which follows in the Ezekiel 38 passage.

We have Ezekiel speaking words from God Himself. Note that there is no indication that the prophet saw a vision, which he was describing afterwards. He is simply passing along the “word of the Lord” as he received it.

Ezekiel 38:2 indicates the prophet is to “set his face against Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal” . Given what we have learned above, alternative translations might read Gog, from the land/place of Gog, “head leader/ shaker”, “drawing/dragging along/leading the inhabitants of the world” OR “leader of prized possessions and perversions” OR “leader of Meshech and Tubal regions OR “chief creditor/borrower/debtor” OR “chief deceiver, deluder, seducer”.

It is particularly interesting that words in the title used to address Gog are related closely to what happens to Gog himself in the passage. The “shaker of the whole world” will himself be shaken as the biggest earthquake in history follows later in this very chapter. In addition, the word “mashach” involves dragging out/away. This is the very action that God uses to move Gog in verse 4 when he puts “hooks in the jaws” to “bring him out” to the “mountains of Israel”. It also needs no reminder that the role of Gog in the whole episode described in Ezekiel 38 is one of treachery (ie poison) which is another meaning of the word “rosh”. In addition the role of Gog in the chapter is described as one of deceit, delusion and seduction.
I think this little study so far will reveal some of the insights in the address by the Sanhedrin to President Bush on his arrival in Jerusalem in January. They call him the “leader of the world (west)” and indicate he has a choice to make regarding Israel. He can choose to follow Cyrus (the only other figure named in Biblical prophecy) who restored the Jews to the Land or pursue a course of action that will bring judgment upon him and his country. If he persists in the present course of action he becomes Gog

It remains to be seen if the motive of Gog involves financial considerations is some sense, given the strong aspect of debt, borrowing etc. described above.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

Some thoughts on the “invasion” of Ezekiel 38


Joel Rosenberg is an accomplished author who has had a number of New York Times best-selling books. In the Ezekiel Option he postulates an attack by Russian, German and Islamic forces against Israel. In Epicenter he outlines his theory of the projected invasion of Israel. I say projected invasion because the actual invasion never happens. In the Ezekiel Option the Russian led confederacy mobilizes in Lebanon, Syria and Saudi Arabia to attack Israel. Russia then fires a nuclear weapon from central Asia (Tobolsk of course) but it never enters Israeli airspace. God intervenes and destroys the Russian, German and Islamic armies in their forming –up points. In addition, judgment falls on the respective countries that provided attack forces. The world is made safe for the eventual rise of Anti-Christ headquartered in a pacified Iraq in a newly rebuilt supercity of Babylon. It becomes the commercial, political and religious focal point of the world. There was no need for Israel to exercise any resistance because hostile forces did not in fact penetrate Israeli territory. While Israel is prepared to fire nuclear weapons at all the invaders’ countries in a Samson Option of total destruction, this is not necessary as God has obliged them and devastated the coalition Himself.

Why does Rosenberg have the forces of Gog destroyed OUTSIDE of Israel? Here is the problem. Think of Desert Storm in the early 1990’s and the Persian Gulf war invasion of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq in 2003. There is a necessary and predictable “Battle Procedure” associated with an invasion. Firstly you must establish overwhelming air superiority by eliminating an air threat from the opposition. This accomplished you then “degrade” the opponents’ capability for surface to air fire by eliminating anti-aircraft radars, weapon systems and communications facilities. Then you “soften up” the targets with high level bombardment (B52s etc), naval and airforce cruise missiles etc. You target and eliminate large group formations of hostile forces, then pulverize the actual defences that will be encountered to block your advance. All of this must be done BEFORE you actually invade a country. To miss any step is to set-up your ground forces to disaster. Sometimes even when you do that it is touch and go. In WW2 American forces at Omaha beach had great difficulty establishing a beachhead even with air superiority, naval and airforce bombing etc. Oh, I should also mention that you must eliminate the opponent’s potential hostile response. This could involve the launch of conventional or nuclear weapons. Clearly these capabilities must be “neutralized” before any ground attack begins.

Now let us turn our attention to Israel’s present situation. The country is estimated to possess some 100-200 nuclear weapons held in hardened silos and some deployed on submarines. In addition they have arguably the finest airforce in the world. Their pilots are “top guns” with combat experience. They train constantly. And they are highly motivated. Invading Israel is no cake walk. An aggressor would need to carefully follow the “recipe” outlined above before sending ground troops in. When that occurs they face state of the art tank and anti-tank forces and highly committed IDF ground forces. The only country with the kind of capability to overwhelm and destroy Israel resistance is America! How then do the forces of Gog actually get to the “mountains of Israel” where according to Ezekiel 39:4 they will actually fall? Let us turn our attention again to Ezekiel 38 and review the “invasion” and “attack” that are outlined there.

First the invasion! In the NIV verse 8 indicates “you will invade …” and again in verse 11 Gog says “I will invade a land of unwalled villages…” Furthermore “I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people” Earlier in verse 8 these people “live in safety”. The GK Concordance lists the word translated “invade” as GK 995 (similar to Strong 935). In the 2581 times this word is used in Tanach it is translated come (374) came (285), bring (177), went (174), brought (165), go (105), coming (71), comes (67), arrived (48) etc. In fact there are forty-two words that are ahead of “invade” as an option for what this word actually means. Why did the translators of the NIV use “invade” then “attack” (the same Hebrew word)? Simply because people ASSUME that a big army is attacking and invading when it enters another country. Note that other translations like New American Standard translate this passage as “you will come”. Same for King James and New King James. American Standard has “thou shalt come”. Note that the NIV is the EXCEPTION to the others in translating the Hebrew. There is no invasion....Gog and his associates simply arrive!! That is why Ezekiel’s narrative does not involve ANY description of battle or resistance. Israel allows them all in!!! This is a very important point.

In the very few cases where this word is translated “invaded” or “attack” in the NIV there is an element of total surprise/treachery involved. Note that in verse 10 Gog devises an “evil scheme” This is the same Hebrew phrase as used in the book of Esther to describe Haman’s secret plot to wipe out the Jews. Notice in the case of Ezekiel’s account that there is certainly treachery involved but that is NOT the cover story. I distinquish between treachery and overt evil. An invasion of Israel by a Russian coalition that has formed up in Lebanon, Syria, and Saudi Arabia would certainly be problematic and indeed evil. But Israel would see them coming and resist their invasion. They would hardly “invite them in” only to be deceived afterwards.

I believe the discussion above exposes a very serious flaw in the reasoning used by Rosenberg and others concerning a Russian led attack on Israel. They cannot get into the country without a major fight but they must get in to end up on the “mountains of Israel”. Of course the Rosenberg theory has the USA weakly sitting on the sidelines while Russia captures the most strategic energy resource in the world. Oh by the way Rosenberg has oil dropping below $20 per barrel with the discovery of vast underground supplies in Israel, thus wrecking the Russian economy and providing rationale for the attack. Is the scenario of weak US response a credible one?

Well if not Russian invasion who else might just be invited in with large forces to “cover the Land” of the “mountains of Israel” (i.e. West Bank) Look for American peacekeepers along with widespread assistance from associates to do exactly this very thing in the near future! While writing this, a four-star US retired general is actually planning THIS VERY THING. The arrival will correspond with the removal of IDF forces from the West Bank and ensure a stable transition for a new Palestinian state. Perhaps that is why there are no drawdowns of US troops out of Iraq planned for many months. The “surge” is still in place. There are many military resources “in theatre” to permit US involvement in this widely acclaimed and celebrated intervention. When it occurs it will come very quickly! All details will be coordinated with IDF field officers on the ground. Look for significant NATO involvement (especially Turkey that enjoys a high level of credibility with Israel and happens to be a Muslim state as well)

How does this all occur? In Rosenberg’s book he theorizes that vast numbers of horses will be transported to the staging grounds (notice I did not say attack points since he never gets to that point) Are horses necessary? Is the terrain so difficult in Israel? Actually no it is not. I have traveled extensively all over the West Bank. It could be called “hilly” but hardly “impassable”. Let us look again at Ezekiel’s account.

In 38:4 reference is made to “your horses, your horsemen fully armed” people have speculated that invading Cossacks from southern Russia might fulfill this prophecy. But a review of Strong’s Concordance gives us a clue. S5483 indicates the Hebrew word “soos” means “swift flight”. This is satisfied by a horse or even a swallow or crane that flies quickly. Up until recent history the fastest way for soldiers to travel “swiftly” was on horseback. Notice that the next word S6571 “parash” involves a “stretching out” vehicle, including driver of a chariot or cavalry. OR we might add a swift aircraft carrying many soldiers for deployment.

But didn’t we read in verse 8 that Israel must be living “in safety”? Actually the identical word is translated again in the NIV in verse 11 as “unsuspecting”. Given the horror of what actually unfolds as a double-cross the verse 8 and 11 now make perfect sense. The people are certainly surprised by what unfolds. Who are these people? Actually they are the ones living “without the walls”. In the past this meant they would be carefree or carelessly vulnerable to marauders and wild animals. In recent times this phrase exactly describes the people living in Israel on the WRONG SIDE of a separation wall. (i.e. West Bank).

We will see very shortly if there is to be a Palestinian Arab state proclaimed for the West Bank. If so the scenario described above will “grow legs” quickly. In any case if it is wrong and in fact the Russians and fanatical Muslims are to fulfill Ezekiel 38 they better hurry. We are about to witness the “mountains of Israel” become the “mountains of Abbas” in which case a Russian invasion of a PA state does not make a lot of sense. Israel, not the PA, is at the center of Biblical prophecy.

[SAT]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

IMHO
There is a possibility the eagle is Germany in the Bible.


The reasons... the eagle has been Germany's symbol since the very beginning.
Two- Germany, as a state, has lived in constant repentance toward the Jewish people for many years now. (they have committed their, all be it atrocious sin and repented)The rest still believe we have nothing to repent or a reason to repent.

[Andy]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

One thing occurs to me. A successful detonation of an EMP burst over the region would reder Israel's vast superior power useless. Everyone would be reduced to the old fashioned method of fighting man-to-man with guns. Even the high-tech tanks would be out. By shear number the enemies of Israel would have a HUGE advantage. I think it's noteworth what Ezekiel describes as the fighting.

Thoughts?

[SAT]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

I've heard that theory before. I'm afraid I can't remember who, but their theory was based on all the blood, the horses and equipment used in the battle.
Even all those men could not render that much blood and clean up for seven years but if you included the animal transportation....

[SAT]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

PS
If someone was to take this theory even farther you could almost theorize Israel will be in the exact same position, literally, it was when our Lord left to sit at the right hand of the Father.
The Jews could have some say over Israel through religious domination of the Jews, but the real power(political) would be an outside power, the Roman Empire then and now, plus the Temple.
Israel would almost appear just as it did when our Lord returned to Heaven.
LOL Interesting theory if you take into consideration the idea God veiled the eyes of the Jews for a period of time to reach the gentiles. Then returns His hand and drops the veil for their period to resume.

[Andy]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

The thing is, we KNOW something is going to happen that is going to render them completely helpless and only then they will finally turn to God. Right now they are anything but helpless, as was listed by HSB. At one time they were listed as the 5th most powerful military in the world and the single most powerful in their area (I don't know the current ratings). This isn't a military that's going to feel helpless and realize they need God. In fact every major victory they've won (even back in 1948) they've honored their military (as well they should) but refused to give God any glory whatsoever. They are in their land in unbelief - and God will change this one day.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

From Joel's blog about Putin visiting Libya!!!

http://joelrosenberg.blogspot.com/

"Today (4/17), Russian President Vladimir Putin is actually in Libya, the first Russian leader in history to visit the North African country, creating a strategic alliance, signing numerous agreements, and negotiating a $2.5 billion arms sale to this enormous and historic enemy of Israel...."Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi hailed Russian President Vladimir Putin's official visit as 'historic and strategic' during a state dinner at the Bab Azizia palace," reported Agence France Presse."................

[Andy]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

Note to all:

Two of the four Moderators have agreed that we will no longer allow teaching that attempts to prove President Bush is Gog. This demonizes a sitting President and is against the posting rules of our board.

Some of you may remember the "buzz" when Mr. Kissinger was in the daily news in the 70's wherein Christians (I assume, well-meaning) tried to prove him as being the Antichrist. We consider this counter-productive and against scriptural mandates on how we are to respect those God has placed in authority over us. Of course they make mistakes and we are always open to exposing evil (where it has prophetic implications) but demonizing a President with opinion and conjecture crosses the line.

[Don Brooks]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel Pt II

Hello All:

I trust that the following is not too offensive... Mike Evens is well respected in the highest levels of Government in both the Middle East as well as here in North America... He is the Author of several Best Sellers focussed on the Events unfolding in Jerusalem - Israel - and the Middle East...

I simply attach here his latest News Letter to me... It certainly speakes for itself...

==================================================
Dear Don,

I am writing you from Israel after having an emergency meeting with former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whom I have known since he was 26 years old. I was horrified to learn that when President Bush comes to Israel for its 60th Anniversary in May, he has made the decision to mobilize Arab nations to come for a summit on the 17th & 18th of May.

The purpose of this summit is to move forward with the Annapolis Road Map, the plan that will force Israel to give up a large percentage of Judea and Samaria, which they call occupied territories, and divide the Holy City of Jerusalem.

It is extremely humiliating to think this would be America’s way of honoring Israel’s 60th year of prophetic rebirth. Even more outrageous, I saw the document confirming that the plan is to have this finalized by November 12, 2008.

I am asking you to vote and let President Bush know that you oppose him organizing a summit to divide Jerusalem on Israel’s 60th Anniversary. He needs to hear from you loudly and clearly immediately.

Send this to all of your friends and ask them to do the same. God’s words say that I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee.
[Emphasis mine]

Your Ambassador to Jerusalem,

Mike Evans

Your Jerusalem World News: www.myjwn.com
=================================================
I think that The President does a pretty good job on his own of deamonizing himself... My comments have always been to identify what is possible... And I would be a very poor Watchman-on-the-Wall... if I burried my head in the sand every time I didn't like what was coming into view...

In the next few months, I believe that the World is never going to be the same again... And that my Friends is sad...

Blessings: