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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    The point has arrived in this discussion to rely only on what the Hebrew text
    alone says about the direction of pulling of the "hooks," which God is said to attach to the jaws of Gog. The pertinent questions are, “Does God pull the invaders into Israel, or does he hook then up after they are in Israel, and yank them out.” Are they pulled into Israel unwittingly, or could it be with the kind of glee which Moslems traditionally employ when attacking Jews?

    This is where we take a closer look at Ezekiel 38:4. The point is an important one, because the question has been raised as to whether Islam’s traditional enmity could be the causa bellum, or "cause for war" in this case, and whether that formulation might be dishonest or unbiblical.

    At the beginning of the action the verse opens with “And I will turn you back.” The next English phrase contained in three Hebrew words say, “And I will put hooks in your jaws.” The next English phrase contained in two Hebrew words says “And I will bring you out (extricate you)

    Before each verb in each of these phrases there is what is known as a “Vav consecutive,” translated as “and,” in English. The “ands” underline the time sequence of the action: there are other devices in Hebrew to indicate the sense of simultaneous or concurrent actions, to which we may attach the sense of “while” in English, or employ the participial “ing” ending and sense of verbs. But here, first, second, third time sequences are emphasized.

    Here again is the order

    And I will turn thee back (or reverse you)
    And I will put hooks in thy jaws
    And I will bring you out (extricate you)

    The text does not say anywhere that God’s hook will be used to drag Gog in toward Israel: the hook is used to violently pull Gog out: the hooks are attached after the forceful reversal of direction of Gog. Nor does it say that the hook is some kind of high-smelling bait. Also the reason for going in is explained in the way that is outlined in verses 11 and 12 of Ezekiel 38, which is probably the belligerent historic expression and animosity of Arabs--combined with their desire to plunder Israel--put into action. They are not forced or pulled in, in any unusual way

    Only after Gog’s direction of travel is reversed out from Israel ( could be by eruptions in nature, or angelic intervention--or whatever ( the text does not say) does God attach His “hooks” to the Jaws, and make the exit very painful. He does not allow Gog to retreat in peace and good order.

    I would appreciate it if this interpretation of the first part of Ezekiel 38:4 can be proven to be incorrect. I will pass it before a relative of mine who is attending university in Israel. In the meantime, would one or two of you seminary students out there, please check my interpretaion of the timing of events, in the light of the force of the vav consecutives in this case, with your language professor?
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 06:30 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      ZionGene: this is an excellent direction for the thread..solid Biblical focus. I am literally going out the door to airport so must run. However I understand from the third phrase you identified (#3318) that the meaning is to "draw forth (fetch forth) as opposed to extricate. I mention this because this phrase precedes the list of accomplices Persia, Cush, Put. I want to reflect on the notion of the "hook" and what it accomplishes. As I understand your point you are saying Gog arrives and then in attempting to leave God basically says to him "not so fast". On the other hand I have always understood the hook to in effect drag Gog into the scene. In either sense God can certainly act for his own Name's sake!! in a powerful way. I look forward to the comments of others, including the Hebrew "experts". Shalom PS It is fun being a WEDG addict but my wife is literally at the door heading for the car..

      Comment


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        I have re-read through Ezekiel 38 once again, and it occurs to me that perhaps there could be a time break between verse 7 and 8. Like God is telling Gog what He is going to do, and then He tells Gog why He is going to do it.

        First He outlines what He is going to do:

        Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
        And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts [of armour, even] a great company [with] bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
        Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
        Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: [and] many people with thee.
        Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

        **************break**************

        Now He explains how it's going to all play out:

        After many days thou shalt be visited (by whom?): in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
        Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
        Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, [that] at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
        And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
        To take a spoil (the land), and to take a prey (the people); to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
        Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
        Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know [it]?
        And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
        And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
        Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?
        And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, [that] my fury shall come up in my face.
        For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
        So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
        And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
        And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
        Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

        Comment


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          HSB, the verb which is a part of the third phrase in Ezekiel 38:4, is best transliterated by me as “vu-ho-zey-tee.” It is in the Hebrew Hiphil, which says, “I will cause you to come out,” or “will cause you to be brought out,” and/or any of the other subtil meanings as are illustrated in the texts below: it has the English concept of causing something to happen--an exit in this case. It is found in only nine places in the Torah or Old Testament in this first person singular form, all of which I post below. And the earliest one stands most significantly.

          Incidentally, you say that "this phrase precedes the list of accomplices, Persia, Cush, Put..." Actually in verse 4, the word is used relative to the whole gang of them, beginning with Gog; and even if it immediately preceded that list, I do not see how it changes anything.

          Exodus 6:6 "Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:"

          Exodus 7:4 "But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments."

          Exodus 7:5 "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

          Isaiah 65:9 "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there."

          Ezekiel 11:9 "And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute judgments among you."

          Ezekiel 20:34 "And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out."

          Ezekiel 21:3 "And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked."

          Ezekiel 38:4 "And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:"



          Even if “I will extricate,” or, " will cause to be extricated” is rejected, then “draw forth” in Ezekiel 21:3; or “bring you out” of the Exodus reference, could be fitted in Ezekiel 38:4 without much change in the meaning of the action. And considering that hooks are said to be employed by God, I suppose that the rougher “extricate” could describe the action. God is not escorting these folks out, but treating them as dentist does to a tooth, and and worse: an extraction of sorts, using forcepts with hooks on them. Also, “draw out” is the minor use of the term in the context of all the rest, and it has to be interpreted by the others; but even if it stood alone, it does not change anything: it is the same vu-ho-zey-tee
          Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 09:02 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Originally posted by ZionGene
            And considering that hooks are said to be employed by God, I suppose that the rougher “extricate” could describe the action. God is not escorting these folks out, but treating them as dentist does to a tooth—and worse. If hooks are employed, the bringing out is worse than simple extricating. . .
            You have brought up a very interesting point, ZionGene. I have always thought of extricate as a "military-ish" word - a miliatry rescue. "The diplomats were extricated by the Marines, prior to the fall of the embassy." And I would normally associate extract as something done against some resistance - as in extracting a tooth, or extracting the truth from the reluctant witness.

            As I look at my dictionary just now (The World Book Dictionary, 1985), I see something I wouldn't have considered - to wit:
            Extricate (v) - 1) to set free (from entanglements, difficulties, embarrassing situations, or the like); to release: He extricated the kitten from the net. 2) to set free from a state of combination, as in the liberation of a gas or of heat for example, during a chemical process (such as combustion.)
            Extract (v) - 1) to draw out, usually with some effort; to extract a tooth. - (and then quite a number of other uses, having to do with "extracting money, extracting a confession, extracting oil from olives," etc.)

            As I have reread your last post, I can't see that there is a whole lot of difference in the usage of the first 6 passages - the bringing out is done with reasonably little resistance on the part of the ones being brought out. More along the lines of a rescue, or bringing out so as to give a blessing, (Isa 65:9) The last example, however, (Ezek 38:4) clearly is "rougher" and done against some resistance by the ones being brought out - extracted, if you will. God is indeed dragging them out by their beards, amongst much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

            Comment


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              1:10^91 = 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000.
              No way, Jose! There are a couple hundred nations now and perhaps several thousand since God gave Ezekiel the prophecy. To randomly guess any nation would produce a 1 in 10,000 or better chance.


              It's spoil Gog is after and who likes spoil more than America? Can you take a hint? Here's one. Two days ago the Supreme Court upheld eminent domain for private development.
              http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44985 If it's ok to steal from Americans it's ok to steal from any other nation.

              Does 'bring out' mean to bring Gog out of Israel or to bring Gog out for war?

              Comment


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Does this "bringing forth" or "bringing out" have any likeness to "raising up" or "creating out of something"?

                What if the bringing out, or bringing forth is similar to the drawing out of Abraham Ur of Chaldees - lifting out of one place or thing, and creating something new out of it.

                I am wondering if the bringing forth isn't speaking of (and I truly hate to say it out in case of bringing great calamity down upon myself) a raising up of a people, out of a people, such as the Islamic religious nations.

                What if God is saying He would bring forth the Islamic nations to come against His people, Israel, so that He would one day be hallowed among the heathen?

                This is just a hunch, but I keep feeling this might be just as good an exlanation as any I've heard so far. Better even than the Russian theory.

                Comment


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  PlumBob, "extract" would be the better translation of the verb here in Ezekiel 38, since the action effected with hooks in jaws, does not refer to the preservation of the items being taken out. On the other hand, "extricate" implies saving something or someone from destruction in most ordinary cases, and in most of the biblical references too, where that form of the verb is used. But both extract and extricate mean taking out, and not bringing or sending in

                  However, in every case in the scriptures where that same exact form of the verb is found, it carries the sense of "bringing out" by God. And bringing Gog out and not in, is what God's hooks do in Ezekiel 38:4. The verb usage never speaks of sending, or pulling something in

                  Yet one could say, that in using the same Hebrew term in the first instances, it does indeed imply saving from destruction, where extricate might suffice. But even then, pulling something out is the meaning. Even the "draw out" of a sword of Ezekiel 21:3 could be translated as "bring out," which is the obvious sense of all the other 8 texts.

                  The point is that the hooks of Ezekiel 38:4 bring out Gog and his cohorts, and not pull them in AND WHY DO I EMPHASIZE THIS FACT?
                  Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 10:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    To ""turn you around""............... as in eze 38:4.........imho...........
                    Russia is at least pretending to go twords democracy since 1991..... the turning around i forsee is that when the russians believe its the right time they will stop pretending to be good and turn back to the agressive russian
                    empire we all remember too well. They will at that moment decend upon Israel in a plan to sieze all the worlds oil. At first the arabs will welcome their help but then the arabs will realise Russias true intentions. this leads to all the invaders fighting each other .....eze 38:21

                    Comment


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      Originally posted by Lay it to Heart
                      1:10^91 = 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000.
                      No way, Jose! There are a couple hundred nations now and perhaps several thousand since God gave Ezekiel the prophecy. To randomly guess any nation would produce a 1 in 10,000 or better chance.
                      I'm really glad you brought this up! Didn't that article talk about 8 prophesies? The 8th root of 1x10^91 is 2.37x10^11. Awfully slim chances of even getting ONE right. And even at your 1:10,000, to get all 8 would be hitting 1:1x10^32. Better chance at powerball, huh?

                      Originally posted by lewishb
                      They will at that moment decend upon Israel in a plan to sieze all the worlds oil. At first the arabs will welcome their help but then the arabs will realise Russias true intentions.
                      This has always been my best guess, too - and still makes the most sense to me, from a totally geo-political stand point.
                      Last edited by PlumBob; 06-25-2005, 09:43 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        I will reiterate that we haven't yet seen even a glimpse of what the disengagement will look like a month from now.
                        'Orange Wave' Upsets Sharon, Bush and Police 01:46 Jun 26, '05
                        Opposition to the government's evacuation plan has sent tremors in the establishment. Sharon has ordered police to clear the roads, the police fear loss of control, and Bush is losing support.
                        http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=84557
                        Islamic Jihad Challenges Israel Amid Growing Anarchy 01:03 Jun 26, '05
                        Islamic Jihad terror leaders declared they will end the "calm" and strike Tel Aviv if Israel tries to capture or kill them. Meanwhile, Arabs continued shooting each other in Jenin.
                        http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=84555
                        Is the USA Really Israel's Ally?




                        With friends like them, we don't need enemies. Sorry, but facts prove the myth a lie. The United States of America is not a friend of Israel.
                        http://israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=5244
                        To quote LiTH, "No Way, Jose." This thing will surprise us all.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          wow- short time on an airplane and 9 posts go by

                          Thank you Layittoheart for the simple little question that I was struggling with: You said "Does 'bring out' mean to bring Gog out of Israel or to bring Gog out for war?" It seems to me when I read the passage that God will bring forth Gog and his associates from the nations, not from Israel. This suggests that the Sovereign Lord of history is like a master conductor who nods to the woodwinds when it is their time to contribute, allowing them their moment of attention. There are two parallel courses sweeping through history...one is the notion that we get to control everything, even thump Israel if we feel like it. The other is that God is accomplishing His will in His own time in His own ways. Sometimes these two threads are in harmony when we act to do God's good pleasure. In that case we are blessed. On the other hand to defy God's plan brings down judgment.

                          This thread has identified a range of plausible explanations for Gog's arrival in Israel. In my spirit I feel a deep sense of foreboding that things are going to start to move quickly (and yes even unexpectedly) Some major force is going to arrive in Israel and get smashed by God. Some think it will be an invasion on horseback, others like myself a quick deployment by aircraft. But in any event God will use this action to make a point...for His own name's sake. PRAY THAT WE HAVE NO PART IN THIS MUSICAL SCORE that is about to unfold.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            After outlining the overall sequence of the action in Ezekiel 38:4--including when the hooking of the jaws takes place, and in what direction the hooks pull--God goes into detail, beginning at verse 7, looking at things from a human perspective.

                            Here is the action supported by various verbs

                            GOG makes preparation in verse 7. In verse 8 he comes into the land of Israel. In verse he comes and descends like a storm. In verse 10 he thinks an evil thought. In verse 11-12 Gog determines to "go up" to the land of unwalled villages, to take spoil, and "to turn they hand upon" the people that are gathered out of many nations.

                            Verse 17 indicates that in all these human appointments, that it is God's indirect, relatively mild control, which "brings thee (Gog)" against a regathered Israel.

                            At no place in the text does it say or hint that it is the "hook" action that brings out Gog from among the nations. But the text definitely says in the summary paragraph of verse 4, that God uses hooks to drag Gog out of Israel.

                            And the summary says that if there is any dragging with "hooks," it is out of Israel, and not from anywhere else.

                            I am assuming that all of us are willing to be subject to the substance of the text in this case
                            Last edited by ZionGene; 06-26-2005, 09:35 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Wendyj - thank you very much for posting that article War on the Horizon, in posts #823 and 824. I doubt that you were with us at that point, but many pages ago I asked about Damascas, and whether its destruction was already accomplished in the past. The article opens new horizons on that subject.

                              Yes, ZionGene, I think I see your point, regarding the last couple or three posts. I've gone back, like Sandi, and reread Ezek 38 & 39 this morning.

                              In order for me to agree w/ your logic I have to put the "pause" between verse 6 and verse 7. 38:1-6 are describing how God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel. Not so gently, it appears. Then after catching a breath, 38:7-ff, does a bit of a time shift, and starts telling the story of how Gog got there in the first place. The reasons, enticements, and motives for going into Israel in the first place.

                              If the concept of a sequence-break is valid, as in "verse 6 - skip in time - verse 7", then there is no reason to believe that verses 7-ff may not also include the same concept - Which leads me to:

                              Verse 9 stands alone - a statement.
                              Verses 10-12 stand alone - a statement of WHY Gog invades.
                              Verse 13 quite frankly, I don't understand
                              Verses 14-16 stand alone - another restatement of the same chunk of time as above
                              Verses 17-ff - a story of the result of God's fury against the Gog army.

                              In summary, I'm seeing this not as a continuous time-line from Verse 1 to the end, but rather God (through Ezekiel) stating, and then restating, and then restating again, things about the same singular chunk of time - specifically the point in time that Gog decides that it would be a good idea, and a profitable exercise, to go into Israel.

                              HSB, I've purposefully avoided using the word 'Invade" for your benefit But without having the knowledge of the original language, I can only impute that this is a foray into Israel for the purpose of gaining booty - despoiling, looting, if you will.

                              ZionGene and all, please excuse me if this has been patently clear to everyone but me but I'm in absolutely new intellectual territory here. Also, ZionGene, I don't want you to interrupt the flow of thoughts, but I will be very interested to see some comment on the import of verse 13.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Help me understand "God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel ". The point of the story is they all end up dead on the Mountains of Israel. In what sense then would they need to get hooked "out" of Israel..they never leave, do they. Or is there some form of revolving door where they arrive/leave/come back again. Sorry but I don;'t follow this (am quite prepared to confirm I am simply dull to understanding what seems so clear to others) Seems to me the hook might work to draw the folks into Israel in the same way a hook works with fish. Fish sees juicy worm and goes after the bait, turns out its the fish that pays the price of involvement. Or another exoplanation is that God simply drags Gog against his will into Israel.Am I missing something here??

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