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Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    In 1967 when Israel regained control of the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Why oh why did they let Arabs have control of the Temple Mount? Does any one know the thinking behind this?-the justification?


    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Wendyj, they gave it over for the simple reason that from even before 1967, the majority of Israelis did not believe in a living God. What God did and will do for them, will be all of grace and in spite of Israel's general disregard for God. The prophet Ezekiel got it right, when he described returning Israel as "dry bones" spiritually, in his 37th. chapter.
      Last edited by ZionGene; 07-16-2005, 01:33 AM.


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Wendy- the rationale used at the time was that it would be a gesture of reconciliation to the Muslims to let them manage their holy sites on Temple Mount. In addition the rabbis were forbidding Jews to even go up there for fear of accidentally walking through the former Holy of Holies unawares. Thirdly many Jews had grown accustomed to the belief that the holiest spot in the world for them was the Western Wall. Only a few recognized that the Western Wall was only a retaining wall for the original Temple platform, NOT the Temple itself. God had miraculously given the whole ancient area of Judea and Samaria including all Jerusalem back to the Jews with their own national sovereignty intact after about 2500 years (when Neb and associates came from Babylon around 600BC...less a few years under the Hasmoneans that wasn't such a great time anyway).
        I did not learn until recently that for a number of years after 1967 Israel still did not know what to do with the newly acquired lands west of the Jordan. The settlement projects started very slowly and even then it was well into the 1970s. This in spite of the fact that Jordan had simply annexed the lands without international approval in the late 40s after the armistice. ZG is absolutely correct that most Jews have no concept of what the God of Israel is doing in recent times... so sad. God is working miracles and they don't even see it Unfortunately it seems that it will take outright Vice-grips squeezing them to a point of total desperation...


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          "And I will turn thee back","I will turn you about", "I will turn you about", Are not all these expressions talking about the about face that Gog will do? I like your understanding of...."or in a few cases judgment against those who turn away from God to unrighteousness."
          This in my mind is a better understanding using the Americas as Gog. If Bush being a self proclaimed Christian leads the Americas into Israel for any reason, this passage could mean the about face that his religiousness takes in front of the world. Doing an about face so to speak. This makes a whole lot more sense.
          I hope that he truly is a devoted Christian as he says, and will see a move into Israel will start a chain of events that are against everything he says he stands for. If he is Gog, then I am glad to have been a part of this board and recognized the signs and season of the end of days.


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Hi All:

            I've gotten far too much 'sun' these last two days of Vacation... I'm more Strawberry than Tomato... but I do have all the sun I need for this year!

            Now down to the important issues... The lines are drawn, and the Universe is unfolding exactly as He had planned it to unfold right from the beginning! After all... History really is "His-Story"! And the Scriptures have actually recorded it in advance... what a marvelous and Awesome God we serve!

            "They Won't Cooperate"

            by Rachel Saperstein
            Gush Katif Viewpoint, July 7, 2005

            I strolled the streets of Neve Dekalim today to see the reaction to the Prime Minister's speech to the Knesset Committee on Preparedness for Disengagement last night. Each of the cabinet ministers spoke eloquently and with assurance that their part in the expulsion of Jews from their homes was ready. Defense Minister Mofaz spoke of the readiness of the army - 41,000 troops and 3,000 police - to pull the families out with "efficiency and kindness". Justice Minister Livni assured the Committee that the internment camps for holding opponents of the expulsion are ready. Courts will be set up in the camps. Judges will be ready to mete out swift justice to any person deemed a law- breaker. "All law-breakers will be dealt with harshly" we were told.

            But there was one snag in this mighty structure of preparedness. As the Prime Minister said, "We are ready, but they [the settlers] won't cooperate".

            He whined that the government was doing everything to make the expulsions as pleasant as possible, but the settlers refuse to cooperate. "They are even planning to build [protest] tent cities while we are offering them apartments and caravans."

            I met a group of women walking to a shiur, a lesson in belief and trust in the Almighty. I visited my friend Sylvia, in her late 80's, to see how her home had been redecorated. The sound of classical music played on the piano drifted out of my friend Rachel's home. Children filled the park opposite my own home.

            Dana, who owns our stationery shop, was unloading school supplies for the coming year. Our supermarket remains well-stocked - a new brand of ready-to-eat gefilte fish was on sale.

            Not one family could be seen to be packing. Everywhere life goes on as normal.

            But our heads are not in the sand, and life is not normal. The pressure on the people of Gush Katif grows daily.

            Our health clinic will soon be closing down depriving us of the health care and medicines we need. The many pregnant women here will no longer have the services of a visiting gynecologist.

            Our one bank is rumored to be closing, as is our post office and various utilities.

            Lior Kalfa, our mayor, has organized Emergency Committees to oversee the needs of our people in the event of a shutdown in vital services like water and electricity and food supplies. Those who need chizuk, a strengthening of resolve as the tension grows, will find open doors and sympathetic ears.

            We hold on, we stand firm, because we realize that the fate of the entire State of Israel, all the People of Israel, rests on our slender shoulders. That is why we do not "cooperate". That is why we cannot "cooperate".

            Read on my friends...

            An E-Letter from Sondra Oster Baras July 19, 2005

            Dear Don,

            Yesterday, I went to Netivot, ordinarily a sleepy southern town, to participate in the Prayer Rally and the start of the great march towards Gush Katif. The day was sunny and hot and although we knew how the rally would begin, we had no idea how it would end. And as I write these words to you, I still have no idea how it will end.

            As we drove south, we stayed tuned in to the regular news broadcasts on the radio. The demonstration organizers sought all the standard police authorization, and there was every expectation that they obtain the necessary approvals, although it was clear that the authorities would not allow the march to enter Gush Katif. We were stunned, though, when the government announced yesterday afternoon that the entire demonstration, including the prayer rally, was declared illegal. In an absolutely unprecedented move, police moved against buses setting out for Netivot. Passengers were pulled off buses, the drivers' licenses were impounded, while still in cities hundreds of kilometers away from Netivot.

            Hearing all this on the radio, we could only imagine what would await us when we finally arrived in Netivot. Not surprisingly, as we approached the southern town, traffic became impossible and we moved ahead at crawl speed. As we finally approached the town, imagine our amazement to find policemen directing traffic, telling us where to park and assisting us in crossing the busy street to get to the rally site. As the hours passed, thousands continued to stream to the site, until there were close to 40,000 present.

            Rabbis stood on the dais and led us all in prayers, reciting psalms and special prayers that were composed for the occasion. The air rang with cries to G-d to cancel the terrible decree, to bring a miracle. Imagine, tens of thousands crying out 12 times: Hashem is our G-d!!

            Afterwards, there was some music and singing, followed by politicians who were as vibrant as they were defiant. The most moving was MK Ayoub Karah, a Druze MK from the Likud party, who traces his ancestry to Jethro, father-in-law of Moses. Karah has been a major leader in the anti- disengagement campaign. The crowd roared its approval when he said: "If a Druze refuses to expel a Jew from his land, shouldn't a Jew be even more adamant in his refusal?"

            As it got late, I left the area and started the ½ hour trek to my car and then drove the 2 hours home. But my son stayed, as did most of the crowd, certainly the younger members! And ever since, I have been on the phone constantly with my son, getting updates on what is happening and encouraging him in his stand for the Land.

            Just before 9 p.m. last night, they started marching towards Kfar Maimon, a small village just a few kilometers from Netivot and that much closer to Gush Katif. The police let them start the march, but then stopped them in their tracks after a short time. They stood in place for an hour, the road so crowded with marchers that there was no place to turn. The entire time the leaders of the march, rabbis and political leaders, beseeched the crowd to refrain from any violence, to keep things peaceful. After an hour, the police allowed the crowd to march towards Kfar Maimon. They arrived close to midnight and bedded down in a potato field for the night.

            This morning, as the sun rose, the campsite came to life as people said their morning prayers, the men wrapped in prayer shawls and donning their tefillin (phylacteries). They moved into the village and were welcomed by the local residents. One kind man opened his home to whoever needed it - for a shower, a bathroom. He bought out half the local grocery store to provide drinks and snacks for as many as he could. And that is just one story among many - for there are still close to 20,000 people there!

            As I write this, it is unclear what will happen next. The protesters are determined to continue their march towards Gush Katif. The army and police are determined to prevent it. No one wants violence. The atmosphere is tense on the one hand, but on the other, there is a fantastic spirit of togetherness among the people of faith, among those whose love for the Land of Israel, for the people of Israel, and for G-d surmounts all.

            These are not easy days. And as the protests against disengagement reach a feverish pitch, we must keep in mind "the day after." Should disengagement go forward, we must be ready to mend the rifts that are tearing us apart. And we must stand in unity as we face escalating terrorism that will follow the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Should disengagement be prevented, we will need to be united and strong as we face unprecedented international pressure. Whatever happens, we must remember the lessons of the second temple era, when Jew fought against Jew, leading to the destruction of the second temple. We must never let that happen. Please G-d, help us get through this terrible time.


            Sondra Oster Baras
            Director, Israel Office
            Christian Friends of Israeli Communities


            phone: 800-551-3207


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Lay it to Heart, your analogy about how we treat Israel like a "cheap one night stand" was sadly on target.

              Regarding Israel in scripture, I am constantly amazed by the ignorance/apathy held by average Christians. When discussing prophecy with believers, the reaction is frequently an outright denial that modern Israel has any future role in God's plan.

              Oh, how I praise Yeshua for leading me to this site -- this thread in particular. Imagine! Over 800 thoughtful and mature posts discussing one of the most important subjects of our time. That's edification in a nutshell!

              Let me just thank everyone here for contributing so much awesome information. You have helped many of us "connect the dots" for a clearer picture of how world events are lining up perfectly with Bible prophecy.


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                As HSB has already mentioned... "Things are really heating up over there"!
                For this kind of Police Action to be taking place in a Democracy makes one wonder what Legislation has already been passed in our own countries giving Police sweeping Powers that we have no concept of... at some point we too may find ourselves being denied normal free travel into or out of certain parts of our own country(s).

                From Arutz this morning...
                Army to Residents: Some of Your Property Will Be Left Behind

                By Hillel Fendel

                An outstanding issue in the ever-so-complicated disengagement/expulsion issue is what to do with the residents' property. The army's threats represent psychological pressure against the residents.

                "Whatever we can fit into two large containers, we will take," an army commander said this week, "and the rest we will simply leave behind." The speaker was Brig.-Gen. Guy Tzur, IDF Commander of the Southern Command Task Force, meeting with the people of Netzer Hazani in Gush Katif.

                "Whoever stays after the date set by the government, August 15, will have some of their property packed by the army - and the rest of it will remain," the officer said. "After the residents are taken out, whatever is on the floor [such as chairs, tables and the like - ed.] we will take, and whatever is not, such as pictures on the wall and air conditioners, we will leave behind."

                Benny Yefet, whose son Itamar was murdered by Palestinian terrorists in Gush Katif almost five years ago, called out, "Sure, it would truly be a good idea to leave behind the picture of my son for his murderers who will receive my house."

                Another woman called out, "Who's talking about air conditioners? We're talking about something very different - we're talking about the values that you taught our sons in the army officers' courses, about the Land of Israel and the People of Israel."

                The residents wanted to talk about the violence that occurs nightly at the hands of the police and soldiers at the Kisufim Crossing. "Every night there is some kind of clash at Kisufim," Anita Tucker of Netzer Hazani told Arutz-7 today. "We showed Gen. Tzur pictures of one of our boys who had his hands self-tied with an orange ribbon, and a policeman choking him - you can see the boy's tongue out of his mouth, grimacing in pain. One of the residents said to Gen. Tzur, 'If I would have seen that happening to my son, I would have shot the policeman - and you would have as well.' We told him other stories, and the officers who were with him appeared a bit shocked. Gen. Tzur said he would look into it, etc."

                The residents told Gen. Tzur that they had met with many government officials - "we have met and are willing to meet with everyone except [Prime Minister] Sharon and [Disengagement Authority head Yonatan] Bassi," Tucker said - and that they had learned that there are no housing solutions for them for a month from now.

                At that, Gen. Tzur pulled a piece of paper from his pocket, and began to read, "I met with Bassi, and he told me that there are solutions for everyone. There are 300 caravilot [new mobile homes of 60 and 90 square meters (72 and 107 square yards)] in Nitzanim, for instance." He also said that there are apartments available for the others.

                Tucker described what happened next: "We told him that there are 420 people already signed up for those 300 caravilot. We told him that there was going to be a lottery for the caravilot on August 13, which means that some of those who think they have a solution, really do not! And certainly Netzer Hazani would not be able to go as one bloc, which all the experts said all along is critically important... He said that it was our fault for not meeting earlier, etc., and we told him that we had met with lots of people, and that the idea of Nitzanim had come from our representatives in the first place!"

                The next issue was that of containers into which the belongings are to be packed. "There is no room next to the caravilot to put the containers," Tucker said, "and certainly the people who live in hotels will not be next to their belongings. So we described the situation to Gen. Tzur: Every morning we'll be bused down to Sdei Teiman, near Be'er Sheva, where the containers will be stored, so that we can get the stuff that we need for that day? With all the complications of finding the right container, and then the person with the key, etc. - this is how we are to live?!"

                At several points, Gen. Tzur responded to the residents' concerns by talking about the importance of democracy and the need to abide by democratically-made decisions.

                "Gen. Tzur said that the expectation is that only 20% of the population will actually remain in Gush Katif by August 15, such that the problem would not be as critical as we were describing," Tucker recounted. "We told him, 'Wake up! Do you know how many people are here already now? We offered to take him on a tour of Netzer Hazani and show him how many families had already taken in additional families into their homes."

                The official population of Gush Katif is approximately 8,000 - but some estimates are that close to 11,000 people, including entire high school and yeshiva classes from around the country, currently live there. More are arriving daily, with the Yesha Council planning to intensify its efforts in this regard in the coming days.

                Tucker told Gen. Tzur that even among those who might have been willing to leave before the scheduled date, "the violence used against us makes them more unwilling to go along with any government policy... You talk about a 'split in the nation' - it's always been here, but everyone knew how to live with it. But now, you are forcing the issue and pushing us into a corner; you knew all along that we hold Torah to be more important than democracy."


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  we're talking about the values that you taught our sons in the army officers' courses, about the Land of Israel and the People of Israel."

                  I believe that God will intervene in the coming days.
                  I don't know how he's going to do it, or when, but he will.

                  A palestinian state on Israeli soil is an abomination.


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Is it a coincidence that after Ez 39 when it talks about bring Jacob back from his captivity and establishing him in the land---that ch 40 talks about building the temple.

                    Here's what went through my mind today when I was reading.

                    God brings Jacob back into land
                    God shows himself mighty on behalf of Israel and solves the disengagement thing in an amazing God-way
                    Revival breaks out in Israel, both converts to Yeshua and converts to Judaism from secularism
                    Many more amazing numbers of Jews from Russia and around the world join in returning to the land -Aliyah
                    God pours out His spirit in continued revival
                    Israel annoints a King from Davids line---Monarchy
                    Rebuild temple

                    I take my inspiration from reading Joel but more importantly Ezk 39:22-29 and chapt 40

                    Whad ya thunk?
                    Last edited by wendyj; 07-22-2005, 07:53 PM. Reason: spelling again


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      Have to figure where the AC comes in - and will the massive Aliyah be before or after the Rapture?

                      If the 144,000 are all fromt he 12 Tribes, scattered about, if may be after the rapture for this reason. The 12,000 from each tribe used to witness would be able to be involved not only in witnessing, but also in getting their brethren into Israel. While a massive persecution is begun, the AC promises, "Oh, don't worry, ou'll be safe in Israel" - which will be true for the first 3.5 years.

                      Then, you could have them all gathering into the land, perhaps with the Palestinians wiped out but not the Persians, etc.. AC chases them out, and while he's been holding back the tide all this time, he tells God and all the others, "Okay, go ahead, they're like sitting ducks now, go for it." That's when God supernturally rescues them.

                      It would make sense b/c if AC is at this point head over the revived Roman Empire, and other nations are sort of forced to sit back and do nothing (because he has control of all their military or something), then of course all the young lions could do is wag a finger and say "art thou come to tke a spoil."

                      Then again, what di I know? The fact I'm saying this shows it's quite unlikely to happen this way :-) I need to get back to studying, anyway - this board's too much fun :-)
                      My books for sale
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                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Originally posted by Doug Fowler
                        ...Then, you could have them all gathering into the land, perhaps with the Palestinians wiped out but not the Persians, etc.. AC chases them out, and while he's been holding back the tide all this time, he tells God and all the others, "Okay, go ahead, they're like sitting ducks now, go for it." That's when God supernturally rescues them...

                        Is it possible that the Palestinians will join in with the invaders/peacekeepers in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

                        Ezekiel 39:
                        1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
                        2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

                        Only a sixth of any Palestinians joining in the fray will survive. How likely is it that an "incident" will occur of great magnitude in Israel but the Palestinians will not join in as one of the hordes? I think it may be very possible that a majority of the Palestinian men will be dead within the next couple of years. This will reduce the opposition to Israel occupying the land God gave them.


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Definitely a possibility; I wuld be amazed, in a way, if any Muslim states would be willing to stand by while Israel is given a peace treaty; if the AC is the one to defend Israel, then God can't get the glory for delivering them. To me, it has to be int he 2nd 3.5 years, or before the tribulation starts.

                          I just wonder, if they are crediting God with the victory in Israel, if they would then turn around and sign the treaty with the AC.

                          Hmmm, then again, I need to remember to think like the present day Orthodox Jews and not like a Christian when approaching how the Israelis would see this. We know Jesus was the promised Messiah, they don't yet. So, I suppose you culd have a situation where the Palestinians and all those others are wiped out in Ezekiel 38/9, and then with all the Israelites turning to Orthodoxy, suddenly the AC comes on the scene and signs the treaty for seven years.

                          It's confusing - tht's for sure.
                          My books for sale
                          Please print, pass on these items:
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                 2 Kings 4, spiritual leadership in difficult families


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            I was just looking at the numbers olooks at posts to this thread---23,573.
                            That tells us that many people are interested in Ezekiel just now and looking at these chapters in question.

                            Andy is there anyway to tell whether security forces are reading our posts?


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Originally posted by wendyj
                              I was just looking at the numbers olooks at posts to this thread---23,573.
                              That tells us that many people are interested in Ezekiel just now and looking at these chapters in question.
                              Wendyj, this thread was 6 months old last Friday - it started on 1/22/05. I have kept a watch over the number of views and posts the whole time. It has consistently run at about 24.5 - 26 views per post. The Ark and Politics thread is currently running nearly 31 views per post. I can only surmise that you are correct about there being a LOT of interest in this particular subject

                              Many moons ago we jokingly left a couple of messages for the CIA and NSA guys to forward along to President Bush. We never got a reply (much less a "Thank You for your Input.") But I rather imagine that some agency has an automated (spell that smart computer) reader that is watching for specific words or patterns. It's just that the computer, not having a soul, can't get saved, and therefore really doesn't care much about what's really happening.


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Originally posted by Doug Fowler
                                It's confusing - tht's for sure.
                                Hello, All -

                                Considering events like the following: Quoted from Debka:

                                Mofaz: If the Palestinian Authority does not catch the murderers of Dov and Rachel Kol, Israel will find and punish them. Three Palestinian terror groups claimed murder of the Jerusalem couple in Gaza Saturday nightJuly 24, 2005, 11:10 PM (GMT+02:00)

                                They were shot dead on the on the Kissufim road driving home from visit to Ganei Tal, Gaza Strip. The attack was claimed by Gaza-based Fatah-al Aqsa Brigades, Popular Committees and Jihad Islami.
                                DEBKAfile Exclusive Military Sources: Sharon has ordered IDF chief of staff to stand by for a major pre-emptive operation against Gaza terrorist bases – before the mid-August pull-out.July 24, 2005, 11:22 PM (GMT+02:00)

                                The strikes against Palestinian Hamas, Jihad Islami and Popular Fronts Gaza bases are planned to consist of combined aerial-ground raids pinpointing the terrorist organizations’ leaders and infrastructure
                                I believe there is still some liklihood that the disengagement could be pushed back, day-by-day, and week-by-week. I also noted w/ some interest that J Solana had tacitly volunteered for the EU to be involved in some way - check-point guards, was it? I don't remember exactly. In any case, if the EU should become a "trusted friend" it wouldn't be that large a stretch to seem them put together a package of peace guarantees.

                                Finally, I was in the Jerusalem Post site last night and they have set up a special "Disengagement 2005" section. The news there tonight is noticably biased FOR the disengagement - as has been JPost's proclivity this whole time. 21 days and counting down.

                                I believe that we should again remind ourselves that if, in fact, any of us have opinions about what we would like to see happen over there, the time for us to intercede in prayer is growing very short.

                                -------- LATER --------

                                I have just been down my trap-line of links to news from Israel. It is pretty clear that there no longer is much support for the disengagement, except in some circles of the government.

                                I also saw an interesting thought from an Israeli, that hinted that if indeed the Gaza Strip gets disengaged (I don't know what else to call it) - that the "lessons learned" from the process will force the abandonment of the West Bank disengagement. We have not yet seen the final complexion of this mess, I imagine.
                                Last edited by PlumBob; 07-24-2005, 09:51 PM.