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  • #61
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Hello, Everyone...

    OK, well first, let me go back to ZionGene's post on page 2 of this thread

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    I have often speculated for instance, as to what would happen if He allowed a volcano to break through an oil field; and furthermore, what kind of engineering on His part has kept them separate for all of this time, on the same planet. The world in in for some demonstrations of divine power-plays, when His fury will "come up in His face," over Gog's trespass in the Holy Land.
    I find that very interesting, ZionGene, in light of the fact that there are oil and gas deposits in Israel. I occassionally check in on the Zion Oil and Gas web site http://www.zionoil.org/ and it appears that there are both oil and gas inland, and gas offshore.

    I posed your question to a fellow with whom I've had a few conversations, and got the follolwing reply:

    "The only situation I know of is the ancient possibility that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by methane and sulfur and oil releases after an earthquake along the Dead Sea Rift Zone. I am not aware of any other possibilities. Oil and gas are usually trapped in domes and bent sediments, probably not adjacent to major faults. . ."

    HSB, how would you assess the geo-political implications of Israel being energy independent, in relation to all of this? Putting aside the scenario of God intervening in the partitioning of Israel for a moment, how would you react to this thought -

    I don't think Russia would be too thrilled to have an energy independent Israel, able and willing to sell huge quantities of oil to the world, when Russia, which has the oil, doesn't have the infrastructure to get it to market efficiently. Would not that be an incentive for Russia to "invade", even risking drawing the ire of the US?

    But back on-topic, there is a thread here called Middle East Update: No Hurry for Peace. . . The article quoted there seems to infer that that author doesn't see any of the Arab nations (he calls them "regimes") in a particular hurry to see "peace" accomplished between Israel and the palestinians anyway. So why shouldn't we be more Alfred E. Newman-ish, and just go w/ "What, me worry?"

    And another question - HSB, I get the feeling from your posts that you think that we will see either Israel divided (and we'll "put away our books") - or - Israel not divided, but God will knock some heads instead. What I haven't seen you say, explicitly, is where/when you think the rapture will occur in this timeline. Earlier you said (paraphrased) that we could easily see the first 4 seals of Revelation. So, where does the rapture fit?

    Thoughts everyone? As Aragorn said to the dead under the mountain - "What say you?"
    Last edited by PlumBob; 02-09-2005, 09:19 PM.
    ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

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    • #62
      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      PlumBob: you have posed 2 questions for comment. The first involves oil and Russia, while the second pertains to the timing of the rapture and the seals.

      First the oil. My big picture scan of the world tells me that, with the exception of Middle East deposits, the rest of the world has ALREADY hit maximum production output and has started into decline. Add to that the fact that world demand for the stuff continues to increase. This is clearly a huge issue for all oil importing countries (put the USA at the top of that list) China's needs have put that country in number 2 position behind the US. China is building a large navy for strategic purposes, including the protection of oil delivery from the Middle East. Look for major collision of interests with America in the future. That is why it is increasingly important to have US forces and equipment on the ground in the Middle East, both to ensure the flow of oil this way (and potentially deny it to others). America has military power and is using it to advance its own interests. Given the fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia there are few US troops positioned there currently, but the tight relationship between the Saudi princes and US leadership continues for the time being. Some form of coup in Saudi Arabia may change that. In turn that would "require" intervention, perhaps to spread democracy there. USA has huge caches of equipment in various access locations, including six secret bases in Israel we recently learned about (so much for that secret!) The USA is very jealous about who will get access to MidEast oil. As an aside why did the Germans as well as the French protest so much about US intervention in Iraq? Well try the fact that under Saddam's regime it was European oil companies that were being used to develop/exploit the oil reserves. That all changed to American. There was a clever little requirement that if a country had not participated in the invasion of Iraq, it would not share in the profits of its restoration. The Europeans got frozen out.

      Now about Russia. Russia is one of the few countries left that is a NET EXPORTER of oil. They have no problem with meeting internal needs at all. There is no pressing economic imperative to push them into the MiddleEAst equation unless they were attempting to deny oil flow to the West. How long do you think that would be allowed by USA. Give head big shake!! One interesting thing to look for I believe is the potential inclusion of Russia into the EU system. That would give Europe access to the rich resource base of Russia. I'm sure Russia could also sell all of its surplus to China for the indefinite future. Europe will need this oil as much or more than the Chinese. The infrastructure in place also flows west I believe. Perhaps a WEDG expert inthe oil business could clarify this point for us.

      Summary to this point. Oil access is going to get very, very important. The guys with force on the ground, strategic "reach" and "punch" are Americans, Look for America to protect its own interests with whatever is required. Given my scenario for implementation of the Arab-Israeli peace deal I do not see anybody else being permitted to deploy massive military force in the area other than America. Also Israel would not trust anybody else.

      Regarding the Seals, my point is that the scenario I laid out is very realistic and indeed likely. It appeals to nothing other than the existing conditions and trends. It will aslo catch 99.9% of folks by surprise. The first four seals of Revelation could easily, and in my opinion will likely be fulfilled in the next few years (read that as current president's term) Europe will reemerge as the dominant global power under a strong and dynamic leader who is using emergency powers to consolidate his position. Israel will learn to play along with the new rules or be totally strangled economically. Now please excuse me while I go and throw up in the bathroom.

      OK so where does the rapture fit in. The short answer is "beats me"! In my spirit I hope for the Lord's return immediately, but I don't know what His plans are in this regard. I truly want the pre-trib rapture to occur, but believe we should quietly prepare for dark days ahead. James said to "count it all joy when trials come..." I am dismayed at the lack of depth in Bible teaching in our churches, and the lack of spiritual maturity and discernment as well.

      Israel is God's timepiece!! Israel is about to go through the most wrenching experience since its creation in 1948. There will be incredible disruption of lives if the "judenrein" policy gets implemented in a new palestinian state. I have been impressed in the past with Condi Rice's talents and intellect. But in this situation something or somebody far more powerful is at work. She has said appalling things in the last few days regarding Israel. But peace in our time is on everybody's minds, regardless of the cost.

      The Israeli disaster response leadership in November told my brother and me that they are spending ALL their time devoted to earthquakes!!! It will be interesting to see if they are ready when God shakes that little land so hard the mountains themselves collapse.

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      • #63
        What America My Be Responsible For

        Excuse me everyone! Please please latch on to www.israelnationalradio.com ; then scroll down to an archive show of Tamar Yonah's named "Is George Bush the Gog of the Bible..." and listen. I was especially interested in the claim that if Mr. Bush is not Gog, he will be responsible for pushing Israel into a corner which it will take the coming of the Messiah to extricate Israel from. This is so great, that I recorded it, and I expect that you will want to do the same

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        • #64
          Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          ZionGene does Tamar Yonah's named "Is George Bush the Gog of the Bible require windows media player version 10 to run? I could not get it to run on version.9 or lower and I would have to have windows xp to get windows media player version 10 which I do not have.
          kennygg

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          • #65
            Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Dear kennygg

            I have the Microsoft XP, and AOL. Whenever I latch on to audio, my system automatically reverts to the AOL Player. That is what it did when I listened to the program in question. I notice from another thread that Lightseeker was also able to listen to the program. You may want to send him a private message to see how he brought up the sound.

            I hope that you succeed in bringing it up

            Yours Truly
            ZionGene

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            • #66
              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              ZionGene: thanks so much for posting this info. Came through loud and clear. Do you know what the contact information might be to read the whole article that Tamar and Dov were referring to? The nicknames for Yales Skull and Bones members was absolutely fascinating! I had heard that Prescott Bush actually took Geronimo's skull from his burial site in Florida. His descendents wanted it back, and apparently never got it back. This information is along the same line. Had not heard of nicknames for George senior (MaGog)and George W (Gog). Sure would be helpful to get more info on this, As you are aware I have chatted with Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem years ago who were very concerned with the George=Gog idea. Things are getting very interesting!
              Has anyone heard any reaction from the Evangelical Christian community to Condi's remarks and Ariel Sharon's recent action?

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              • #67
                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Arutz Sheva has an interesting article on the refusal of IDF personnel to participate in evacuations. They estimate not just 10,000 but 50,000 refusals. Folks it won't be the IDF doing the forced evacuations...leave that to the "peacemakers" who will arrive in due course to implement the new (wretched) peace deal. http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=76656

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                • #68
                  Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  I have a high respect for Jewish exegesis and insight into prophetic matters, but I believe that conclusions gleaned from their kabbalistic sources etc., (outside of the actual scriptures) are no more valid than that of Christian extra-biblical writings. I therefore find it to be quite a stretch to equate the West--and particularly the US--with Esau or Edom. Yet, I do believe that our nation would put the "mess of pottage" of oil above principle in a showdown, but that does not make it to be of Esau.

                  Here are a few more conclusions along this line which distrub me, and of which I need to beware.

                  Right here on this board, I have seen some good sincere folks (probably born-again believers), try to identify America as the whore of Revelation 17, from the fact that America took over Iraq--land of Babylon--recently. (I wondered why they did not also say that we automatically adopted the religion of Japan as our God, the instant we captured Japan). Then there is the new talk emenating chiefly from within Israell religious circles, that America has now become Gog. But there is slippage even here, because the West, America included, is now Esau himself.

                  The point was made that maybe the then-current players of the Cold War seeped into prophetic conclusions ,during the end of the last century, and made Russia (sure-enough) Gog. But if that was true then, I submit that the same process of osmosis is at work now: certainly George has to be Gog!

                  There are two reasons why i believe that the above assertion cannot be true, and that to hint as much is unkind to say the least.

                  In the first place, I have no reason to doubt the fact that President George Bush, President of the United States is a born-again believer: I think that it is his testimony, that Billy Graham led him to Christ. And if he is a child of God, he is included under the general grouping and blessing that "He (God) hath not appointed us to wrath." And remember, that God says to Gog, "I am against thee," which is full of wrathful content, and which I doubt would be His attitude toward any believer in Christ, given the content of Romans 8:38-39.

                  My second reason is this.

                  If the Sermon on the Mount is the ultimate ethic of God--and I submit that it includes admonitions against slander--I cannot see a situation where it would be the will of God for me as his servant, to even hint that such and such is--or even may be--the antichrist, or Gog, or the whore of Revelation, or any such unsavory character, unless I could add unequivocably "Thus saith the Lord."

                  But I might add this much, that some very good born-again believers have done some very wrong stuff. Take Martin Luther for example! He certainly came to know Christ, but his diatribes against the Jews became one of the excuses which Hitler used to kill Jews. Yet, the scriptures indicate that God would purge every believer--even those who make gross mistakes, and I do not believe that God would state that "I am against thee," over the head of any man of God, even if he commited murder and adultery as David did. Which leads me to the conclusion that if George Bush is headed to far afield from God, God will rein him in--you may be sure of that--as He does to all his children. Geroge Bush cannot become a Gog! And one of the possibilities which distrubs me about conclusions which Rabbis arrive at concerning him, is that he just maybe Gog, because of his claims to know Christ. And I say that that is the reason why he cannot be Gog

                  If President George Bush knows Christ, God will somehow, and in some way, get him out of the dividing up of the land of Israel. Up intil a few days ago, I suspected that he might indeed be used by the Enemy to trap Israel, but I now expect God to take this child of His out of that process

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Zion Gene. These are thoughtful and sober comments you have posted. I also trust that the president is a born-again child of the King and will be used for righteousness in this country and the world. I am perplexed however at things like his apparent association with the Skull and Bones secret society, and his drive to settle the middle east mess personally "on his watch" by creating a Palestinian state. As I read my Bible this later action is diametrically opposed to the written word of God. Now if the prophecies have already been fulfilled as the preterists claim, or the covenants of old have been replaced by a spiritual blessing only, then all the rumblings in the middle east are so much political machinations. My spirit rebels at that though.

                    I recognize we must be very careful to point fingers of accusation at people, but on this issue ZionGene I am with the settlers in the west bank communities. Anyone who goes to unroot and remove these folks is courting with disaster. This IMHO is far different from speculating about Y2K impact years ago, or UFO existence. I say again that if America decides (notice there is still a big choice here) to actively add muscle to force the Jews out of the "mountains of Israel" west bank region, then America risks a day of judgment. If the president leads this foray then my friend I would have to agree that he has chosen to be Gog.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      Dear HSB:

                      During my formative years in Christ, I was part of a denomination which taught against Christians being involved in secret societies and politics etc., which had rendered me, in spite of the passage of many years, as being as a-political as one can be. And I know of many believers who have blind spots when it comes to matters like these. I am in a small minority of believers, who take separation from worldiness as far as non-involvement in lodges, etc. I am so dull (and not necessarily spiritual), that you cannot get me to sit and listen to one make-believe movie, or read one book of fiction--much less join a political party. But I know some born-again folks who indulge in these things, but put me shame by comparison as it relates to faithfulness in church attendance; tithing, and a private devotional life.

                      In comparison to me, President Bush is a biddy-biddy babe in Christ--I do not think that he has known Christ for one decade--and if the worst thing that he is guilty of, is being associated with a secret society, I would like to swap his lifestyle with mine immediately. All of which reminds me, that even Peter backslid into trying to make the church a private Jewish club--even after the enlightenment of Pentecost, and the vision of the sheet let down from heaven. He did so bad after these events, that Paul had to rebuke him openly in Galacia, yet he was--as I expect Mr. Bush would be if he drifted too far--reined in by the hook of the Good Shepherd's staff, considering that he was a member of the fold of The Redeemer. For which reason, I expect some delay in this two-state business to be delayed, while Mr. Bush is in the driver's seat, in one way or the other

                      And concerning the settlers in Gaza and Gush Katif: I am convinced that they will comprise the vanguard concerning whom God said, "I will save the tents of Judah first." And under the present circumstances, I can understand it if they refer to Mr. Bush as a Gog of sorts, or say that America is a kind of Esau in its emphasis on instant gratification. But to say that George Bush is Gog is, in my opinion, unsubstantiated defamation.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Originally posted by kennygg
                        does Tamar Yonah's (show) named "Is George Bush the Gog of the Bible" require windows media player version 10 to run?
                        kennygg, I'm running WMP-9 also, on XP. I didn't have any trouble listening to the program tonite. I clicked the wrong link in Tamar's little write-up, the first time, and got Dov's blog. The correct link is the little one to the left. But when WMP started, it wasn't on top, it started minimized, and I didn't realize it was running, until later. I had the volume down, and waited probably 5 minutes. Finally when I had essentially given up, I happened to see WMP minimized at the bottom, and had it. Try again.

                        ZionGene - I've got to tell you, you're a breath of fresh air. I've run into your kind before I grew up in a very "structured" Christian home, too. Cards were OK, dancing wasn't. We didn't do a lot of things. The one I laugh at the most is Pretzles. We didn't eat pretzles. Verboten. Because - for crying out loud - pretzles were found in bars. And people went to bars to drink beer. And people eat pretzles when they drink beer. And if we eat pretzles, then people will think we also drink beer. Ergo, we don't eat pretzles.

                        Of course somewhere about the age of 30, I realized that I like pretzles. They taste good. I think I remember that the Bible says something about there were pretzles in the sheet of various foods that Paul was told to eat from Uhhh, well, maybe I don't really remember that, but you get the point. So, my dear brother, you're not very much more square than me!

                        Now, I also have some comments about Tamar's show, and the Gog - Magog issue, but I'm going to go find the scriptures I want, before I post. Suffice it to say, for the time being, that the Gog issue put completely aside, what I find absolutely fascinating is that we (Christians) think we're staring the end in the teeth, the Jews think we're staring the end (End of Days) in the teeth, the Muslims are more than happy to oblige the Jews, the North Koreans are are wanting to be like Dirty Harry, and say "Go ahead, make my day" so they can pull the trigger, and most of the rest of the world doesn't have a clue.

                        I think perhaps that this thing is now like a runaway nuclear reactor, and has gone critical. We're in for a really exciting ride.

                        Will go look for my scriptures now, and probably post tomorrow.
                        ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          I asked Zion Gene how he was able to record the audio file of that recent Israel National Radio presentation (I could not figure out how to get my computer to record an audio stream) He simply suggested using a tape recorder near a speaker now that's clever!!

                          PlumBob: I also see a freight train gaining speed down the mountain and the brakes don't work. The whole thing is about to derail. I think the event that causes "derailment" will be the implementation of this 2 state solution in Israel. EVERYBODY now has a stake in its successful implementation.

                          Here is a challenge to Wedgies. Give me a forecast as to how this thing plays out, let's say over the next 4 years!

                          Option 1: four years from now we are still talking about it, nothing has changed other than 2600 more mortar rounds have been fired into Gaza and Sziderot, etc. 3000 terrorists have been rounded up but then subsequently released through endless false starts etc. You get my drift....

                          Option 2: slightly bumpy or even smooth implementation of 2 state system.Under blackmail from US and EU both arabs and Jews come to their senses and get serious about peace. The Jews in the west bank settlements are quietly dragged out of their houses in the middle of the night with no photographers around to record the scene or screams.

                          Option 2a: similar to above but without hazzle. The Jews come to their senses and realize that replacement theology was in fact correct all along. The covenants with Abraham etc that they had clung to down through the years are null and void now... and they finally realized that the whole thing of resettling the mountains of Israel was so much wishful thinking. Fortunately the $200,000 US available to each settler family was still accessible. The settlers had a meeting and decided to take the money and run. Too bad that the dollar collapsed against the Euro before they got a chance to spend any of it.

                          Note: If option 2 or 2a happen to play out (or something like them) I will turn off my computer and learn gardening. Simply because the mountains of Israel will now have become the mountains of abbas/or abyss if you prefer.

                          Option 3: Under enormous pressure from USA, EU, UN and every other acronymn you can think of, Israel gives in to the 2 state solution. However it never gets implemented! God Himself intervenes with a few events of His own planning. Things get shaken up quite a bit...

                          OK Wedgies: Who will give me a scenario based on world conditions and SCripture that outlines where this 2 state solution is going to end up. Please do not duck this challenge. Anybody out there?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Well, HSB, you're certainly poking at balloons with a pin here, aren't you? I'll be very intrested to see who responds with what!

                            Let me go back to the Gog/Magog conversation, for a bit, tho. I'm not yet convinced that it makes a lot of difference whether President Bush is Gog or not. I've looked for the scriptures that (I think) I've read over the past several weeks - and poof, I can't seem to find what is stuck in my mind. So I'm going to use the following:

                            Zechariah 14:2-4 "For I (God) will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south." (NASB, emphasis added by me)

                            If I'm not mistaken, elsewhere I've seen verses indicating essentially, the following: (In my words) "I, God, will cause you (enemy nation) to come against my chosen ones (Israel) and allow you to do them harm. Then, because you (enemy nation) did this, I am going to punish you (enemy nation) severely. I will restore my chosen ones (Israel) and bless them, and in that way show the whole bunch of you that I am God."

                            Now, with that concept in hand, I don't know that I can see a lot of utility in arguing whether George W. is Gog or not. The way I see this, IF this original scenario of yours is correct, and IF we do see a culmination of a push to a Palestinian state, and IF God does step in and bash heads, the motive for George W's actions is completely a moot point. He will have been used by God to accomplish a purpose of God. End of story. In a nutshell, if this is in fact the End of Days, then we should understand that God has the absolute freedom to accomplish that, through any means He chooses. (Not trying to be argumentative. )

                            I think your last post is extremely well stated. I do have some thoughts, both in direct and indirect answer to it, but will wait for others to have a chance to post first.

                            BUT, we are absolutely in agreement about the importance of the whole process - although I'm not a "prophesy scholar" as I've stated before, I've been watching and listening and pondering all these things for quite a while, and have never seen so many diverse people and groups coming to the same conclusion.
                            Last edited by PlumBob; 02-11-2005, 03:05 PM.
                            ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              I finally got to hear Tamar Yonah's named "Is George Bush the Gog of the Bible and was a great broadcast! It was not the windows media player version,for some reason it was windows 98.It played just fine on a older windows media player with windows xp, wierd, never had that happen before.

                              kennygg

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                The very possibility that somehow this nation and our President may be used by the Enemy of our souls to bring harm to Israel, is making me feel very bad indeed.

                                Here we are speculating and wringing our hands lest our President make a fateful mistake, which could blot our nation’s reputation forever. But why could it not be the opposite? Why could not God reward America--which has been relatively decent to the Jews--by crowing it with a leader who facilitated the rebuilding of His House in Jerusalem in our day? The very idea brings forth tears of joy!

                                About two or three hours ago, a thought came to me.

                                Why not a thousand believers (I believe that we can muster that number through this Board alone) covenant to pray to God, that He Himself would break through and speak directly to President Bush personally--and tell him to change the course which he now seems to be on in proposing to divide the Land of Israel--and thus show mercy and bestow heavenly historic honor on him and the nation which he leads? If God could get though to a Cyrus King of Persia and to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in the BC, with a personal vision, certainly He can do it again if He wishes in AD 2005. And I remind myself, that even Cyrus’s initiative to order the rebuilding of The Temple under Ezra and Nehemiah, was (of necessity in my opinion) preceeded by the intercession of Daniel, in Daniel chapter 9. And maybe someone should ask friends in Israel to help out in this prayer effort! Why should not America be blessed by having its leader initiate this great development in our day? What a great everlasting honor that would bring to the name and career of this nation!

                                Imagine George W Bush announcing that it is his vision to see the rebuilding of The Temple in Jerusalem and lays the groundwork to facilitate it!


                                .

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