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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by wendyj
    Barring a miracle, Canada is hooped already.
    I didn't want to be the one to have to bring the bad news out in print first, Wendyj, but yes, Canada is already in the game - like it or not - mia Canada culpa.

    Comment


    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Why don't they just use some of the billions that Arafat stole?? HSB

      British Prime Minister Tony Blair speaks before G8 and African leaders at the G8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland on Friday. (Reuters)



      Last update - 00:33 09/07/2005


      G-8 nations promise $3 billion in aid to the PA over next three years

      By Reuters

      The world's industrialized nations backed plans on Friday to pump $3 billion into the Palestinian Authority economy over the next three years as part of efforts to secure peace in the Middle East.

      International special envoy James Wolfensohn, helping coordinate Israel's planned Gaza withdrawal, sold the plan to leaders of the Group of Eight (G-8) nations during a three-day summit in Scotland.


      "When the disengagement plan happens over the next few weeks it is essential we build the infrastructure of a state on the Palestinian side. This money can help us do this," British Prime Minister Tony Blair told reporters.

      Wolfensohn, a special envoy for the "quartet" of the United States, Russia, European Union and United Nations, said last month he wanted the cash for projects that could include a seaport and infrastructure programs in Gaza.

      Palestinian officials welcomed the announcement, but said the money must be disbursed quickly to help rebuild the Gaza Strip after Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this summer.

      Faryar Shirzad, the senior U.S. negotiator at the G-8 summit, said a key part of what Wolfensohn was going to do was to "widen the circle of donors, including donors in the Arab world."

      "In essence it's a proposal for him to essentially work with the Palestinians to help spur the kind of economic developments and governance necessary for them to develop a capability to govern themselves and to maintain a stable Palestinian territory," he added.

      Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi described the package as a type of "Marshall Plan," referring to the U.S. 1947 aid package that helped revive post-World War Two Europe.

      "This concrete aid will help (the Palestinians) find jobs and create companies," he said. "This was the least that we could do ... and is a concrete incentive to boost the Palestinian-Israeli peace negotiations."

      The G-8 statement repeated past calls for a comprehensive resolution to the Middle East conflict, saying this was "crucial to peace in the world and prosperity in the region."

      It added that a successful Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the northern West Bank scheduled for mid-August would re-energize the peace process.

      "The government of Israel should meet its 'road map' commitments on settlements, and fundamentally ease the system of movement restrictions that prevent Palestinian economic recovery, consistent with Israel's security needs," the G-8 said.

      "Palestinian economic revival also requires systematic reform driven by the Palestinian Authority, which must re-establish internal law and order, and take effective action to confront terrorism," it added.

      Comment


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Why don't they just use some of the billions that Arafat stole?? HSB

        Are you kidding? Do you know the price of those North Korean missiles, anti-tank weapons and shoulder fired SAM's?

        Comment


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          Solana is in Israel for "talks". It will be interesting to see what comes of this ( as well as the celebration of the 10th anniversary this fall of the Barcelona accord. Looks like the "division of the Land" is speeding up again. HSB

          EU Envoy: Israel Barrier Raises Concerns

          Monday July 11, 2005 12:01 PM
          By KARIN LAUB

          Associated Press Writer

          JERUSALEM (AP) - The separation barrier Israel is building in Jerusalem raises humanitarian problems for Palestinians and could complicate future negotiations on a final peace deal, the visiting European Foreign policy chief said Monday.

          Israel's Cabinet on Sunday approved final details of the Jerusalem barrier, which will cut off four Arab neighborhoods with some 55,000 residents from the city, while including tens of thousands of West Bank settlers on the Jerusalem side.

          Palestinian officials said Israel's main goal in building the barrier is not improving security but shifting the disputed city's demographic balance in favor of Jews. Israel insists the barrier is only a temporary measure, to keep out suicide bombers, and that it is not drawing a final border around the city, part of which is claimed by the Palestinians as a future capital.

          Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres, meanwhile, said Israel is seeking an additional $2.2 billion in U.S. aid to help pay for the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank.

          Israel is the biggest recipient of U.S. aid, getting an annual $2.3 billion for economic and military purposes, but says it needs more money to remove some 9,000 settlers and develop the Galilee and Negev Desert regions for resettlement. The request is to be delivered later Monday in Washington.

          Palestinians fear that Israel is unilaterally drawing its borders, by pulling out of Gaza, beefing up large West Bank settlement blocs and building the barrier around Jerusalem. The fate of Jerusalem and the settlements is to be determined in talks on a final peace deal.

          Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said Monday that the Jerusalem barrier is inflicting a ``catastrophe'' on the Palestinians who hope to establish a future capital in east Jerusalem, the sector Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast War. Some 230,000 Palestinians live in east Jerusalem and make up about one-third of the city's residents.

          The barrier is part of a longer series of obstacles and dividers that runs along and in the West Bank.

          The 40-mile Jerusalem segment, which is halfway complete, does not run along the municipal boundaries. Instead, it meanders, cutting off four Arab neighborhoods with some 55,000 residents, while including the Jewish West Bank settlement of Maaleh Adumim with 30,000 residents.

          Palestinian officials say the barrier pre-empts the outcome of final peace talks because it cuts off east Jerusalem from the West Bank and also shifts the demographic balance in the city.

          ``The whole idea (of the barrier) is to get as many Palestinian outside Jerusalem, and get as many Israelis (as possible) inside,'' Erekat said. ``This is determining the fate of Jerusalem before we begin negotiations.''

          Erekat said he would raise the issue with international envoys visiting the region this week, including senior U.S. State Department official David Welch. ``We have contacted them (the Americans), but they haven't responded,'' Erekat said.

          The United States says Israel has the right to defend itself, but should minimize hardship to Palestinians in drawing the barrier route.

          Visting EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said the Jerusalem barrier raises humanitarian problems for Palestinians. ``We think that Israel has a right to defend itself but we think that the fence when it is done outside the territory of Israel is not legally proper and it creates also humanitarian problems,'' he said after meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom.

          Zeev Boim, Israel's deputy defense minister, denied the route of the barrier was dictated by demographic considerations. ``The fence was put up because of security needs, to stop terrorism,'' he told Israel Army Radio.

          During four years of fighting, more than 100 Palestinian suicide bombers have crossed the unmarked and mostly unguarded cease-fire line between Israel and the West Bank to attack Israeli cities. In Jerusalem alone, 170 people have been killed in 22 suicide bombings. The last one there was in September 2004.

          Cabinet ministers promised Sunday to try to alleviate hardships for the tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, who pay municipal taxes but will soon find themselves on the wrong side of the barrier, and will have to pass through 11 crossings to get to jobs and schools in the city. The government said it would build some new schools and clinics in the Arab neighborhoods cut off by the barrier.

          The Cabinet ordered government offices to be ready with services for those affected by Sept. 1.

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            I dont know why Israel didnt say right off the bat that Jerusalem was theirs by , if nothing else, right of conquest and that it was not up for grabs by the Arabs not now or ever. Why didnt they make this clear before any talks of disengagement etc. because we know that the Arab whining will not stop because they want Jerusalem and therefore the bombings will escalate after the disengagement in order to get Jerusalem and other items on their shopping list. Israel after having given up prime defensive land will be even more vulnerable. Am I mad (insane) because I see this but no expert with decision making powers seems to?

            The absurdity and unworkability of the the whole peace plan is so intrinsically flawed---it makes me really doubt the ability of leadership to think clearly. God is giving the wicked over to confusion right? Because I cant see any reason other than that.
            Last edited by wendyj; 07-11-2005, 02:27 PM.

            Comment


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              The current peace plan is absurd. It won't work. What Israel did back in 1967 was to capture Jerusalem and fully restore Israel but then follow in the footsteps of the ten unfaithful spies saying they would not be able to possess the land.

              Numbers 14:
              26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
              27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
              28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
              29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
              30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
              31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
              32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
              33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
              34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
              35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

              It's really not too different. Is it possible that Israel will have to wait to the end of the forty years again?

              Comment


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Looks like some trouble coming....

                A Forgotten Cabinet Proviso Could Throw Israel’s Gaza Evacuation off Course

                DEBKAfile Special Report

                July 11, 2005, 10:51 PM (GMT+02:00)





                The Israeli cabinet meets Tuesday, July 12, to dive into some troublesome outstanding issues in the operation to evacuate 10,000 people from the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank 35 days away from its implementation. Funding is only one problem. A delegation is in Washington with a request for $2.2bn in special aid to be spread over several years toward the cost of relocating military bases from the Gaza Strip and developing Israel’s under-populated northern Galilee and southern Negev regions.

                An important issue that has suddenly popped up is a forgotten rider to the cabinet’s February 2005 approval of the pull-out. Prime minister Ariel Sharon won the votes of half a dozen Likud ministers by a pledge to execute the withdrawals in four stages with a cabinet assessment of current circumstances between each.

                This week, attorney general attorney-general Many Mazuz confronted the defense and police ministers as well as the chief of staff with a warning: their master plan for an uninterrupted one-stage evacuation is incompatible with that rider. The dilemma was referred to the prime minister Ariel Sharon.

                Already the troops and police designated for the evacuations are training at the Tselim base near Beersheba for operating together as a single entity. The high command says 41,000 servicemen are directly involved. But on the ground, no more than 14,000 will handle evictions.

                Military and police planners attach the highest importance to the operation’s unbroken continuity as a means of cutting down on risks – especially in view of intelligence incoming this week on the new strategy the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas has designed for the evacuation.

                Hamas intransigence intensifies as the evacuation date approaches. In an interview with the Italian Corriere della Sera, Hamas’ Gaza leader Mahmoud a-Zahar stood firm on the refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Asked whether the Jewish state’s withdrawal to pre-1967 borders would be acceptable, he replied in the negative because in the long term Palestine would be Muslim and Israel disappear off the face of the earth.

                Hamas military leaders have fine-tuned their tactics for the coming pull-back from the Gaza Strip.

                Rather than shooting at random on the concentrations of Israeli troops and civilians engaged in the pull-out – in full view of the world media - Hamas military commanders propose waiting for the civilians to be removed and then pound the troops and police remaining on the spot with mortars and missiles for maximum carnage.

                They will thus vindicate their propaganda line that Israel is not disengaging voluntarily but retreating under Palestinian guns. However Israeli military planners are preparing to respond to this eventuality with a large-scale counter-offensive. The troops will storm the sources of the fire - which the Palestinians habitually embed in their own population centers – in Khan Younes and the outlying camps and districts of the southern Gaza Strip.

                But this turn of events would clearly also abort the evacuation process and end any coordination that may yet be achieved with the Palestinian Authority.

                A stop-go operation would make it easier for Palestinian terrorists to target the operation, whereas smooth, swift progress with no pause to get it over in the shortest possible time is built into the military master plan. Supplies of fuel, water and food are also programmed for an unbroken process. For instance, after clearing Netzarim, the military and police would move on immediately to Gadid or Netzer Hazani. Forcing them to hang about and wait for the next stage to be approved in Jerusalem would magnify the vulnerability of an operation which has been pretty chancy for the start.

                Hamas could more easily target stationary troops with their mortars and missiles than units in rapid motion.

                According to DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources, the Islamic group has come to an agreement with fellow terrorist organizations, including Jihad Islami, the Fatah-al Aqsa Brigades and the Popular Committees, for them to open fire on the pull-back - even at low intensity – in the intervals between the Hamas volleys. These attacks will target Israeli soldiers and civilians alike.

                Our military sources report that the military and police command are skeptical of the claims emanating from the offices of the prime minister and defense minister that the Palestinians have concurred on steps to coordinate the withdrawal. They do not believe that the Palestinian interior minister Gen. Nasser Yousef can make good on any intention to deploy a troop buffer between the Palestinian areas of the Gaza Strip and the towns to be evacuated.

                Mahmoud Abbas may really be preparing to sink tens of millions of dollars put up by the Americans and Israelis to create thousands of jobs and keep young Palestinians out of terrorism by gainfully employing them. Israeli military and intelligence offers are convinced that a part of the money will reach terrorist groups while the rest will fill the pockets of idlers.

                Sharon’s most urgent task now is to clear away the obstacle the attorney general has dropped in his lap: the four-stage rider to the evacuation plan.

                Failure to get round this hurdle would present the anti-evacuation ministers led by finance minister Binyamin Netanyahu and agriculture minister Yisrael Katz with a chance to manufacture delays week after week weeks in between stages – or else claim a steep political price for a seamless evacuation.

                In the meantime, the entire country is on edge lest some extremist fringe group or desperate evacuee switches from passive to active resistance to the pull-out and turns to violence, such as shooting at Israeli troops, taking hostages or collective suicide.

                Comment


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  LayItToHeart: some think the "40 years" (actually 38 plus a number of months) is about to be fulfilled again as early as this fall. That's when the same time period stretches after the "failure to possess" the Land starting in June 1967 when Temple mount was given to the Muslims etc. I guess we will all find out pretty soon if there is anything to this!!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Re: the hook

                    Recently on this thread there was discussion about the nature of the "hook" in Ezekiel 38:4. Some believed the "bring you out" referred to hooking OUT of Israel. Others felt it referred to hooking out of the nations, hence INTO Israel. I have just reread chapters 38 and 39 again. In chapter 39 at the beginning is what seems to be a parallel passage to the beginning of chapter 38. God says "I am against you o Gog..." then goes on to say in verse 2 "I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel" The dragging seems to refer to the bringing Gog out of the far north. This passage is a parallel to the verses in Chapter 38 that says "I am against you o Gog...I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army." If this parallel is correct then the "hooking" of chapter 38 is the same as the "dragging along" FROM the far north against the mountains of Israel. Comments?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      1 And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say: Thus saith the L-rd GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal;
                      2 and I will turn thee about and lead thee on, and will cause thee to come up from the uttermost parts of the north; and I will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel;

                      I agree, HSB. The language seems pretty clear that Gog is turned into Israel, not pulled out of it.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        In the passage it reads....

                        Ezekiel 39
                        1Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

                        2And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


                        HSB....and everyone?

                        And I will turn thee back?.....what per say are they being turned back from? If what you are suggesting is true, the armies of Gog would have to be leaving Israel in order to be turned back. Why would they be leaving?
                        What would they have been doing there to leave? Are you suggesting the armies of the North are the ones helping in the Disengagement? Afterwards leaving only to be hooked back in? And are you still convinced that The US will be these armies and not Russia?

                        Snoopy

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Originally posted by Snoopy
                          In the passage it reads....

                          Ezekiel 39
                          1Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

                          2And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


                          HSB....and everyone?

                          And I will turn thee back?.....what per say are they being turned back from? If what you are suggesting is true, the armies of Gog would have to be leaving Israel in order to be turned back. Why would they be leaving?
                          What would they have been doing there to leave? Are you suggesting the armies of the North are the ones helping in the Disengagement? Afterwards leaving only to be hooked back in? And are you still convinced that The US will be these armies and not Russia?

                          Snoopy

                          Without going back and rereading, I believe the immediately previous leg of the discussion was whether the text indicates that the "hook" will be drawing Gog OUT of Israel or IN/BACK IN.

                          Looking at the other translations available on http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...59-8022.html#2, it seems (to me anyway) apparent that Gog is turned back into Israel.

                          The version I posted on the last page are from the online JPS Bible - http://www.breslov.com/bible/ (Jewish Society Publication, 1917), direct Hebrew to English translation. I also have a wonderful translation by David H Stern called the Complete Jewish Bible, and he bases his OT on the JPS as well. For someone who doesn't know Hebrew, reading a translation by those who do seems to help exegesis, imo. Anyway, that version says "I will turn you around, lead you on and bring you from the far reaches of the north against the mountains of Israel."

                          So, what Gog's original interest in Israel will be is anyone's guess (meaning, that which would require them to be drawn back in), no doubt it could be any number of things, depending on exactly who Gog is. But it's been discussed on this thread that possibly Gog's troops are already in Israel to assist in the disengagement and are hooked back into conflict somehow, by what is called "spoil" in Ezekiel.

                          I guess we'll find out in a month. Or maybe not, considering the suicide bombing of yesterday. West Bank withdrawals are frozen as a result and the IDF took back control of the town from which the bomber came. However, they're still proceeding in Gaza - it remains a closed area to non-residents.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            as it was posted before; hundreds of posts ago russia is turned from her "peacefull" republican state back to being an empire again...as that happens, G-D puts a "hook" in Russias jaws, impelling russia to invade the middle east to sieze all the oil......AND kill all the Jews

                            Comment


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              I understand that one interpretation of the passage has Russia being the Armies of the north. My concern is from the "And I will turn thee back" part of the passage. If they are being turned back and the "hook in the jaw" is to mean being pulled into Israel, then it would mean that the armies of the north would be leaving Israel, and then get hooked or pulled back in. I would think that once the armies of the north enter into Israel for whatever reason we will know exactly who the culprits of the north will be, whether they be Mother Russia, or the Bush Bandits.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Dear Snoopy...a whole lot of water goes under the bridge in just 2 days. Recently you asked about "turn thee back". I suggest you consult some other translations as well as KJV. The NIV says "I will turn you around", so does the New KJV. The NASV and RSV say "I will turn you about" These phrases occur in both 38:4 and 39:1. None of the modern translations now refer to the "sixth part"..that is regarded as an error in translation in the KJV.
                                I did a little study of how Ezekiel uses the Hebrew word "shub". It certainly involves a turning process. Interestingly enough of the 63 uses of the word in the book of Ezekiel, more than two thirds apply to a spiritual process..either turning from evil towards God or in a few cases judgment against those who turn away from God to unrighteousness.
                                I believe in the case at hand (Gog), that God "turns" him and his "horde" (aside: that word always gives me the creeps..like some of those brutes out of Lord of the Rings) and redirects them to Israel for judgment. The word often involves a "return to some previous location"...but this is not necessarily the exclusive meaning of the word. I get the impression that Gog is "on the move" and that God drags him into Israel. Or it may be that in fact Gog arrives there and comes back later. Whether it is Russians in the company of Muslim jihadists or some other group as I have mentioned before remains to be seen. I do suspect it will occur quite soon though, certainly before the "mountains of Israel" become a Palestinian state.
                                Given the number of interesting postings on WEDG these days about Israel, things are really heating up over there.
                                There is an irony in the fact that Gog believes he is putting one over on Israel. It turns out the God of Israel will be putting one over on him.

                                PS to AGrace: I just read your much more helpful response to Snoopy above. Thanks for giving the links to both BlueLetter and Hebrew Bibles.
                                Last edited by HSB; 07-16-2005, 12:17 AM.

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