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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by HSB
    Help me understand "God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel ".
    Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. The hooks could also portend simply a sudden but very affirmative jerking of the head around, to cause the army to simply cease what it was doing - without regard to actually "leaving".
    Seems to me the hook might work to draw the folks into Israel in the same way a hook works with fish. Fish sees juicy worm and goes after the bait, turns out its the fish that pays the price of involvement.
    Yes, fish sees jucy worm, and takes a bite. But it is after the bite of worm that the hook begins to be effective, not before. The jucy worm here is the lust of the eye - the desire to get something for free - loot, spoil. The insatiable thirst to have what someone else has - the grass is always greener in the other guy's pasture.

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    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      The action (whether it be jerky or tearing) is whatever can be best described by putting hooks in one's jaws. We may take our choice. Trivializing the situation will not change the truth

      But, HSB, the text does not say that the hooks are employed to bring Gog into Israel. It is flatly contrary to the text when you say "seems to me that the hooks might work to drag the folks into Israel." Obviously, it does seem to you: but it is not what the word of God through the Prophet Ezekiel says. I am surprised that there is an insistance in holding on to what has been proven to be wrong. It would be more honest to refer to some authority on the original text to refute a position at this point, rather than referring to "seems to me."

      HSB, some questions you raise in your last post should be put to Ezekiel. Now, "It seems to me" that you are wilfully avoiding the sense of the text.

      Incidentally, I do not expect that the hooks will be such as are made by a blacksmith. And if you want to be picky, the hooking and bringing out, forces Gog toward the exit sign, which results in a stampede of self destruction
      Last edited by ZionGene; 06-26-2005, 04:04 PM.

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Originally posted by ZionGene
        I am surprised that there is an insistance in holding on to what has been proven to be wrong. It would be more honest to refer to some authority on the original text to refute a position at this point, rather than referring to "seems to me."

        HSB, some questions you raise in your last post should be put to Ezekiel. Now, "It seems to me" that you are wilfully avoiding the sense of the text.

        Incidentally, I do not expect that the hooks will be such as are made by a blacksmith. And if you want to be picky, the hooking and bringing out, forces Gog toward the exit sign.

        I am simply saying that the hook reference can bring Gog and his group "forth" or "out" of the nations as opposed to out of Israel. (Basically the comment that LayItToHeart raised) I am not "wilfully avoiding the sense of the text", nor am I holding on to "what has been proven to be wrong". When I say "seems to me" I am simply giving my own thoughts on the matter.
        I am interested in reading the different comments of people as I learn. It is unfortunate if this sounds "picky". It was not intended that way.

        PlumBob: I found your last comments of clarification and insight helpful. PS The articles you linked a few posts ago all indicate big things are just around the corner! It would not surprise me to see the government fall before the Gaza evacuations occur if the terrorist strikes continue. Many people in Israel are really wondering exactly what the evacuation achieves in a positive way when there is so much grief inside the country and no let up in violence from the enemy.
        Last edited by HSB; 06-26-2005, 04:24 PM.

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        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          Originally posted by HSB
          It would not surprise me to see the government fall before the Gaza evacuations occur if the terrorist strikes continue. Many people in Israel are really wondering exactly what the evacuation achieves in a positive way when there is so much grief inside the country and no let up in violence from the enemy.
          Remember when Arafat had a chance to gain a lot under Barak's proposal. He opted to reject it and turn to violence. Perhaps the same thing will happen now. I believe PA does not want peace and if there were any chance that an Israeli retreat/withdrawal would work, the PA will find a way of circumventing it.

          Concerning Gog's desire for spoil, it is not necessary to take spoil in order to gain spoil. The plot is old and has been repeated. Do you remember the James Bond movie Goldfinger? What was the plot? Take out Fort Knox and as a result Goldfinger's wealth would greatly increase without taking a single ounce of gold out of the fort. Now will that work in the Mideast? The spoil to gain from invading Israel may be achieved through many other means other than actually taking anything from the land. A new oil route secured by Mideast "peace" would be valuable. A non-nuclear Iran in exchange for a final solution would be another. If the Arab oil flows from a new roadmap, that would be worth a lot of spoil as well. Basically, today we can sell Jews for oil, peace, pride, power, nuclear disarmament and more. I recommend that we do not sell one Jew for all the oil in the world.

          We tell Israel we love her and will respect her in the morning. We claim we love Israel but we act as though we our married to many other women. We wake up in the morning and catch the thief taking half of her house and tell her to negotiate with the thief. The thief strikes her, drawing blood, and we say she should show restraint. We carry a gun but tell her she doesn't need to. We have shot thieves before but how dare she even think of doing the same. She goes to the kitchen and we say she is occupying the thief's place. She locks a door and we say she is violating international law. If she wants to join in on the war against crime, she is going to have to cooperate. She calls the police who say she is intolerant and needs to withdraw from part of the house if she wants to get along with the thief. The thief says he wants to run her out of the house and into the sea and we give the thief money. The thief destroys her pictures and scrapbook and we won't even discuss it. We claim that the thief and his friends have rights to share her bedroom as well as she does. Do we love Israel? America treats Israel like a cheap one-night stand.

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Lay-it-to-Heart... you have such a wonderful way of painting pictures... Add to your comments that Israel is the Apple of His Eye, and you might begin to think that we are poking Him in the Eye in the way that we have been dealing with Israel. It won't be long before He wipes the irritant [us] from His Eye, and that will be swift, it will not be pretty nor will it be delayed much longer!

            I'm trying to get some assistance on understanding the "Hook-in-the-Jaw" and its implication before responding to ZionGene. This is one every interesting Chat Roon... and there is a whole lot more yet to be revealed!

            Blessings to all of you!!!
            Last edited by Don Brooks; 06-26-2005, 11:02 PM.

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            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              LayItToHeart: Oh to be a fly on the wall when the Saudis and others talk about what they really need/want in the Middle East. I think your analogies are very interesting. I also believe that one can control important resources by denying them to others as much as hording them for oneself. Time will tell what some of the real behind the scenes discussions will yield.

              "I recommend that we do not sell one Jew for all the oil in the world." wow what a strong declaration of ethics. In early May I was at the Yad Vashem ceremony in Jerusalem. The man who presented the wreath on behalf of the Righteous Among the Nations is a dear friend of ours. His father died at Dachau during WW2. I heard this son, John, talking to a group of young Jewish students a while ago. he finished his story by saying "I do not want to overstate what was done for the Jewish people..only two Jews were helped by my parents" A woman immediately stood up in the audience and said "Do not talk like that..if you save one Jew you have saved the world" And then she added "What more could your father possibly have given than his very life??" I think there was not a dry eye in the place.
              Last edited by HSB; 06-26-2005, 07:57 PM.

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              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                LiTH, I concur with your last post in full. I find it comforting to know that I can participate in these intellectual games on THIS side of the rapture, without worrying about how I might fare on the OTHER side of the rapture

                HSB, I just can't envision why, if indeed Gog's reason for going into Israel is to either take or control spoil, he (Gog) would need to be dragged in. I do understand that this is the way you think that verse could be translated, but for the life of me, given the nature of the human race, about which we would all agree, I don't think that interpretation is the correct one in this instance. Rather, I think what will happen will be a Godless hoard, coming to the conclusion that they are invincible in every way (and if not, very willing to pay whatever price it will take) making an incursion into Israel for the express purpose of either taking spoil away, or controling it so that no one else can have it.

                Later-

                LOL, Mrs. PlumBob says we all need to go to a tractor pull or something! We have too much idle time on our hands!
                Last edited by PlumBob; 06-26-2005, 09:32 PM.

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                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Mrs PB is a very wise person

                  If we see a vast horde of Russians on horseback and/or Muslims screaming Jihad sweep into Israel we will in all probability recognize that Gog has arrived. However, for the reason for the hook I will offer the following: I accept something far less than 1:1 X 10^3 odds. I will not mortgage the house. I recognize there are strongly held alternative viewpoints of the nature of the "hook" as well as just about everything else in the Ezekiel passage. But here goes...


                  Israel is in crisis with the removal of settlers from Gaza, let alone the west bank. I believe they will be incapable of pulling this off without fracturing the country and military. Yet the "world" (quartet/octet/UN etc) are all convinced that the show MUST go on and that there will be a Palestinian state coming in the next short while. Sharon may have believed that evacuating the Gaza strip (which is in fact tough to defend) and a few settlements in northern Samaria would be met with appreciation by the PA. In fact it seems almost the converse. Terror strikes are being attempted almost daily. Fortunately the Israeli security services are so very good that almost all of these suicide bombers are caught before they strike. What looks to the world like a "lull" in hostilities is not that at all, just a string of Israeli successes. The people in Israel in the know are fed up, but so is the "world" with the pace of disengagement. So now the "hook" to bring Gog and associates "forth" from the nations, even reluctantly.

                  I cannot see how America would stand back and let a Russian/Chinese/Muslim etc force take over Israel. Even as "peacekeepers" it won't be allowed. So I fear that America will be asked to lead this venture (or all other potential leaders vetoed by Israel) Reluctantly they agree and for the sake of "balance" optics if none other get broad participation from other nations (except Egypt, Syria and Jordan who have been actual belligerents in the recent wars. It would not surprise me still if there was some "arrangement" with Iran to bring them on side..perhaps the iron clad commitment to implement a Palestinian state. I know I could be wrong on this point and that IDF airforce could be headed towards Iran as I write this.

                  So we have a hook that brings out even a reluctant America. But an "evil plan" gets hatched. Once in position in Israel the US has "on the ground" domination of most of the ME. A huge airlift flows in from the giant bases in the Caucasus states of Georgia and Azerbajan (ancient MaGog) led bya President George from the Land of George and son of George...or if you prefer Gog from the land of Gog, son of Gog. Sort of like a giant game of Risk where control of the Middle East oil supplies, not to mention Caspian sea etc is critical. This force is thoroughly destroyed by a giant earthquake, demonstrating that God is still active in the Land and has other plans.

                  After a short interim period further judgment falls on America (the "coastlands" both East and West) It may be the La Palma mountain slide into the Atlantic (do you know that the documentary indicated that the slide along a 30km front had ALREADY started and got STOPPED. I don't know maybe a terrorist nuke might help it along, particularly if it took out the whole East coast of the USA. Something similar (seismic/volcanic etc) devastates the west coast. Suddenly the world is left with a two-party system... Europe and Asia.

                  Consider all of this above to be wild fantasy. All I have done is connect some dots in a plausible scenario. But what is REALLY important about this discussion is how Israel gets treated. If the US persists in pressuring and then supporting a west bank state creation I fear we as a civilization are doomed, simple as that.

                  So... I will invest more shekels in the "godless horde" theory and hope that this is the correct one. It may not matter much if the leadership is Russian or Muslim if indeed we sit it out. God is quite capable of destroying the aggressor even if the best that gets done is some "protest" from our side of the ocean. What I dread is a lot of naive young men and women being dispatched (perhaps even being invited in) from here to Israel and never leaving.

                  I am not trying to "push" or "spin" this thing. First I pray it NEVER HAPPENS. But if events begin to unfold and AMERICAN troops get deployed (even with thank yous all round and brass bands playing) then look out.

                  PB you were very gracious in your 1:1 X 10^3. You and I both know that if it was announced tonight that a huge asteroid was headed towards earth but the chance of collision was only 1 in a thousand, none of us would sell our homes but I suspect we would at least want to MONITOR the developments until we were absolutely certain the thing had passed harmlessly, just in case. Wonder what we would do if the odds were say 1 chance in 4 of direct hit?

                  We will all know soon enough how the mystery unfolds. Perhaps the thread on WEDG will still be active.
                  Last edited by HSB; 06-27-2005, 12:56 PM.

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                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    There is one outcome which I believe nearly everyone who visits this thread would like to see, and that is that God negates the plan of that man to throw Jewish residents out of Gaza, Gush Katif, and enclaves in Judaea and Samaria.

                    I want to propose something to someone out there, who has visited but not posted in this thread. Would you please open another thread calling for a special time of prayer and fasting for the residents mentioned above. I believe that it would be a good idea for it to run for forty days, beginning the first of July. This brings the end of it to approximately the time when that man propose to evict the Jewish residents.

                    I would like to see this done and be a success, but I would run the risk of carnal pride if I push it myself. Among other things, I will to be as quiet as possible, from the beginning of July, to the middle of August this year. Shalom
                    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-27-2005, 05:48 PM.

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                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      It has not been mentioned that if the Gog invasion happens soon with our army dispersed throughout Iraq they would be overrun by the gog and persian armies...... America would be seriously weakened for a long time to come.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Originally posted by ZionGene
                        I want to propose something to someone out there, was has visited but not posted in this thread. Would you please open another thread calling for a special time of prayer and fasting for the residents mentioned above. I believe that it would be a good idea for it to run for forty days, beginning the first of July. This brings the end of it to approximately the time when that man propose to evict the Jewish residents.

                        An interesting idea.
                        Can anyone tell me about fasting? How is it done? Has anyone ever done it?
                        Has anyone ever not eaten for 40 days?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          I have been sitting idly by, reading and listening to everyone's opinions and ideas on what the passages in Ezikiel mean. My biggest stumbling point in this thread, are the “hook in the jaws” comments.

                          HSB if the “hook in the jaws” is meant to bring the USA into Israel, why are they already there? There have been posts made in this thread pointing to the fact that US troops are already working with the IDF and are already there. I don't think that the US needs to be pulled into the conflict, they already have so much invested in it.

                          Second, to use your fishing reference, isn't hooking a fish taking it out of the environment it is already in? It makes more sense to me, that the US would have to be dragged out of the conflict, and not in. I believe the act of being pulled away from something your crave so violently, may cause the actions of defiance in the face of God. A blinded leader leading his country down a dark road of destruction.

                          Next, why is it so hard to believe that the final war will be fought on horseback as foretold. In the time the passage was written, how would a man describe something he did not understand? Using words that captured ideas rather then literal translations. When it talks about horseback, maybe it truly means horseback, as this seems to be more of a literal meaning than an idea. Also, why is horseback such a stretch when we live in such a technically dependent world. One strategically placed EMP pulse over the area would send most of Europe and Asia back into the stone age. This would make a battle on horseback extremely plausible.

                          I guess another hesitation, is with the idea that God will drag “hook in the jaws” some country (either USA or RUSSIA) into the conflict to fulfill the rapture. I have a strong belief that the free will or choice that God gave man will play into the Rapture, and the destruction of the invading Gog army. Being dragged into the conflict suggests that they are unwilling. I believe the invading Gog army will be more then willing to go in, and may need to be “hook in the jaws” dragged out. Also, I think that God, does not need to “Drag” evil into a conflict to fulfill his plan. Evil chooses to do so, only to feel God's wrath. The image is a lot stronger when evil chooses to do something even though it has been warned about the consequences. Being “Dragged in” conjures up an image of a reluctant participant with a expected outcome. If Gog truly wants to defy God, why would he have to be dragged into the conflict?

                          Now that being said, I am a relatively young Christian. I look to the older Christians on this thread to guide me a little. I hope that my post will inspire some thought and maybe some new direction in this thread.

                          Snoopy

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                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Next, why is it so hard to believe that the final war will be fought on horseback as foretold. In the time the passage was written, how would a man describe something he did not understand? Using words that captured ideas rather then literal translations. When it talks about horseback, maybe it truly means horseback, as this seems to be more of a literal meaning than an idea. Also, why is horseback such a stretch when we live in such a technically dependent world. One strategically placed EMP pulse over the area would send most of Europe and Asia back into the stone age. This would make a battle on horseback extremely plausible.


                            Military hardware is normally "hardened" to prevent malfunction due to an EMP attack.
                            The militaries of the world will function properly.

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                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Snoopy- you ask good questions. Here are my thoughts on the Fish story. A fish is hooked "out of" the water and "into" the boat. The Americans are in Israel in relatively small numbers. The reason I said "reluctant" in my scenario is because large numbers of Buffer zone troops will be required and the business of dragging people out of their homes against their will is dirty and messy. I cannot think that any normal person would look forward to that assignment. American troops are decent folks who would not look forward to such.

                              The struggle I have with the "hooked out" of Israel is that there is no indication in the text that Gog's army actually leaves the place..they end up being destroyed there in Israel. The wording of the text strikes me as strange if it means to hook forth from Israel but they don't actually leave.

                              Regarding horseback, in an earlier post I mentioned that the Hebrew word translated horse in our Bibles actually means "in swift flight". I don't have any difficulty with the fulfillment of this prophecy being a huge horde of invaders sweeping in on horseback (although I really wonder how they would get there..do they ride through the Caucasus mountains from Russia etc) If that is what happens however so be it.

                              Here is my point: If a big army of aggressors arrives in Israel we will all watch God destroy them. I doubt that any of us would be surprised at that eventuality. Judgment then falls on the nations that spawned this outrage.

                              But suppose in fact a reluctant America gets "dragged" into implementing a Palestinian state. The leadership of the venture then decide that there is a lot of spoil available. However the peacekeeper force gets destroyed, along with the major country that sent them (the USA). Tell me if anybody would be surprised..well Snoopy that would be just about EVERYBODY!!! And yet in my opinion this scenario is actually more realistic and plausible than ANY of the others I have heard described. You name a scenario and I will tell you why I personally have difficulty with it in light of the Scripture.

                              Since this thread first started in January I think the American position towards Israel has hardened. The President now talks in terms of 1949 armistice lines as a basis of settlement. A number of much more intelligent folks than I have smelled "sellout". I agree with them. America is moving quickly from previous status of "best friend" to "worst threat".

                              My wish is that people would realize that God is working out His will in Israel and restoring Jews to the Land after thousands of years. I share the concern of many on this thread that what we need is a spirit of repentance, with prayer and fasting.

                              So...do not sell your shares in the notion of a Russian invasion or Muslim Jihad sweep into Israel, perhaps even on horseback. I simply ask you to keep one shekel reserved for a much less obvious fulfillment of prophecy, one that ends up destroying US in the process if we abandon Israel. PlumBob gave the scenario 1 chance in a 1000. IF he sees USA deploy in large numbers I think he might just revise those odds a bit.
                              Last edited by HSB; 06-27-2005, 09:13 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Thanks for the comment on EMPs, I had wondered myself how powerful an Electro-Magnetic Pulse weapon would have to be, because I was thinkinf of what the spoil would be.

                                See, there just isn't a lot of spoil, except maybe for water; I suspect being so close to the sea Israel has a lot of capacity to de-salinate and otherwise purify the water, and that is something Persia, Libya, etc. could use. But, so could all the others.

                                However, if it was possible to send a very small EMP attack, and then take all the military equipment and re-program it, then there might be the spoil. Iran's military is a mess, it decides to launch one of those, before or after a strike on the nuclear program, Russia and the others come along to take the spoil of some of the best military equipment int he world, which they figure they can then reprogram. God then miraculously defends Israel, which can't defend itself because its military has been wiped out.

                                However, I am totally clueless about this technology. I dont' even know if a "really tiny" EMP is even possible, and I also don't know if once you get something that's been knocked out you can easily grab and reprogram it.

                                That is a possible alternative, and points us back tot he fact that the attack could come in the middle or even at the end of tribulation. I need to read about the end result again, thaat 7 years of burning stuff, and see if it's possible Israel might do that in the MIllennial kingdom. I'm not all that sure it's going to be necessary, but it is possible that the Lord will have Israel burn the weapons for fuel and so on as a memorial even if they don't need to.

                                Either way, we do need to realize that this could occur later. Although they'll need something for power those last 3.5 years in the wilderness when they're in hiding. (Although the Lord coudl easily give them manna from Heaven and so on just like He did for Moses and the Israelite.)

                                I am getting tired, though - and I do need to get off of here again and back to my studies (and right now, to sleep :-) I just got on here to get the link for a friend - this is one fun topic!
                                My books for sale http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Baseballifsandmore
                                Please print, pass on these items:
                                http://biblebloggenesis.blogspot.com/ May start other books
                                http://takethespirituallead.blogspot.com/-Fr. 2 Kings 4, spiritual leadership in difficult families

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