Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

[Guest]

Ziongene

You said """One hundred and forty four thousand Jews will be won to Christ through them; """ (the preaching of the 2 witnesses) .........the 144000 appear way before the two witnesses!!! it is thought Jesus will appear to the 144000 just as HE did to the apostle Paul!!!

[Don Brooks]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Wendyj... Thank you for expressing your heart! I have long believed that there is nothing that we can do for Him that counts for anything! It is only what He does both in and through us that lasts for eternity!!! Here is a wonderful 'picture' from the Tanak.... For the Feast of Atonement [At-one-ment] the Feast that represents the possibility of Man and God being reconcilled! The Priests were directed to wear 'cotton' undergarments!!! Why?
So that they would not 'sweat' while carrying out their Priestly Duties! Pardon my pun, but this was to be a "no-sweat" procedure.

SOOooo... what's the point?

The book of Hebrews referrs to Him three times specifically as our Atonement! You see, if we go all the way back to Genesis, part of the curse on Adam [and therefore all of Humanity] was that he had to produce the food that he would eat by the SWEAT OF HIS BROW! Up until the Fall, food was provided to Adam freely... he did not have to exert Self-effort! You see... sweat is the symbol of Self-effort! There was to be NO Self-effort as part of the Feast of Atonement as it is all Him, and only Him!

Now telescope forward to 'now'! Anything we do for Him is in fact Self-effort! You see we've been bought with a PRICE, we are not our own! We need to understand that we are the Temple that He indwells. If we could ever get this through our minds, along with this fact that not only does He have a Plan for our lives, He wants to live that Plan through us! It is not up to us to do through Self-effort, what we understand is God's will, He will do His will through us if we just give to Him... ALL of us! We have NO Rights! Wow! In that case nobody can ever trample our rights because we have none! They would then be dealing with Him who is is me, Him who has bought me, and Him who is living His Life through me. Why they would be trampling on His rights... and nobody wins going up against Him! You might say that the Christian Life is a "No Sweat Deal".... if we are sweating at it, there is probably too much Self-effort in the mix... It is Him, and only Him! If the world could only get a glimpse of Him in me, they would be drawn to Him... If they see me, they just see another one of them... Oh but to see Jesus in me! "Wow"!
Thanks for listening...

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Lewisb, you may be right on that point. And if you are, then the implications are more thrilling. Christ may evangelize them Himself, maybe in the same way that He did to Paul

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Dear WendyJ

What I like about what we are doing at this point in this thread, is sticking as close as we can to biblical texts and stories. And if we do make a mistake in interpretation, it is not because we are not trying to honor the Word Of God.

I want to pick up on what you said last.

I like your reference to the “mark” that the angel placed on God’s own, and I would like to remind all who have trusted Christ, about the Infallible Insurance Policy and Indelible Mark of The Holy Spirit, which is on the body and soul and spirit of every believer in Christ. Three texts come quickly to my mind. The fourth was gloriously delayed

Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

(We need not worry about being left behind when He comes, if at anytime in our lives, the Spirit moved upon our genes, at the point—and ever since—we came to know Christ)


Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

(The text tells us that we were sealed by the Holy Spirit at the point where we believed in Christ. And there is no power which can break the seal of God)


Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

(This text reminds us to be respectful of the Permanent Divine Resident in our souls. These three are powerful enough in themselves, but the next one deserves an extra halleujah, praise the Lord)

2 Corinthians 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

If you and I were ever vaporized in atomic blast; blown up in another 9/11 or suicide bomber type explosion; or suffocated in a chemical warfare cloud: it does not make any difference. “…we have a building of God ( which could refer to either a new body or the New Jerusalem--or both), an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

Now how do you Saints like that!



Wendyj, you said something about being “antisocial of late.” Well, you are not the only one.

I find it hard to even look at the average person in the car next to me with his obscene lyrics blasting at high volume. I notice too, that evil folks today are quite evangelical: it is not enough that they are ungodly, but they must flaunt and share their sin with you. But you know what WendyJ: there is a scripture which says, “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” The person who wants above all else to please God can become quite lonely in many ways, except that—and I repeat—except that He or she sees the steps of God which are missed by most people

[Humble]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Link request per ZionGene.
http://www.omegaletter.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=5516

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Thank you Humble for sharing that link.

I invite our readers to read this whole article, and especially the section beginning at about the twenty-first paragraph down in the article, which begins with "In a new book published by the Center For Strategic and International Studies...."

It relates to the Gog invasion if anything does

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Thank you Humble for posting this link. I will try and summarize some of the key points relating to the Gog "invasion". Help me if I missed something.

An author by the name of Cordesman has written a book indicating Iran is in terrible shape in turns of conventional military (2/3 of its army is made up of 18 month conscripts, the artillery is old and worn, tanks and airplanes are outdated by even MiddleEast standards. Iran is far less a modern military power than it was during the Shah's reign, etc.) so it will work to balance this with newly acquired nuclear weaponry.

Now some commentary follows..I'm not sure if this is from Cordesman or Kinsella. Fearing an attack by Israel to destroy the nuclear capability in Iran, Russian troops join Iran in a PREEMPTIVE strike against Israel. What COULD the US do? nothing without risking nuclear anniliation! So everybody makes some protests at the UN.

The article goes on to claim that Ezekiel had a vision in which Israel will face invasion, led by Russia and the Iranians, and backed up by the "rest of the Islamic MIddle East". What an incredible feat. Ezekiel "got it all right, from Russia and Persia..." What are the odds that all this is sheer coincidence? INCALCULABLE. Oh by the way the chances of eight prophecies concerning Jesus being fulfilled weighs in at 10 to the power 91, so presumably the odds are similar in the case of Ezekiel...

Folks, many may sleep better tonight knowing that it will definitely be the Russians that get destroyed on the Mountains of Israel. It sure is hard to argue with odds that are "incalculable" (or at least 10 to the power 91). I went back to my Bible. I must have missed something in the Ezekiel passage. Ezekiel "got it right" naming Russia. Sad to say I cannot find the actual reference. While most of us will concede that ancient Persia is the land occupied by modern Iran, it simply is not the case for MaGog, Tubal, Meshech. These places were in modern Turkey, Armenia and Georgia. To equate them with modern Russia is a BIG ASSUMPTION on somebody's part.

Secondly, reference is made to this invasion being "backed up by the rest of the Islamic Middle East". Funny that when I checked Ezekiel again I saw NO reference to Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia! What exactly is the Islamic Middle East if not these nations?? In fact in the Ezekiel account it is Sheba and Dedan that PROTEST the invasion. Sheba and Dedan happen to be the ancient names for modern Saudi Arabia.... go figure!

Thirdly, the scenario indicates that Russia, with its questionable military forces (remember these are the folks who got tossed out of Afghanistan and aren't doing a a whole lot better in their own back yard area of Chechneya) and Iran, with its "outdated" decepit army as per Cordesman's analysis, will stage a PREEMPTIVE strike against Israel. What can the US do?...actually plenty! The USA is the ONLY superpower in the world today. To claim that it would allow a Russian/Iranian invasion with conventional military forces to take over Israel and potentially threaten the whole Middle East oil supply chain is ludicrous. But seriously folks, apart from the US support for Israel, to be honest with you I would put my shekel bet with Israel. The Iranian army is a disaster, as per the book, and the Russians aren't that much better off. The Israeli airforce has the best pilots in the world (yes, sorry to say Tom Cruise is not the Top Gun any more!!) I would take my chances with them against the Russians in any shoot out. But let's return to the US response. The problem the US is having in Iraq is NOT against a conventional military force. Remember that the two Republican Guard divisions assigned to protect Baghdad were totally destroyed in two days of B52 strikes. The problem in Iraq are the pesty car bombs and suicide bomber attacks. Believe me the US has ample military hardware to engage ANY Russian/Iranian incursion into Israel without resorting to nuclear weapons. Do you really think that Russia and even Iran for that matter would risk a preemptive attack on Israel when the danger of nuclear destruction cuts both ways?? Far more likely IMHO is the use of nuclear weapons by terrorist cells who are free agents out there.

I could go on but will stop here! What rankles me about the Kinsella article is the association of his scenario POSSIBILITY with the science of statistics. He not so casually mentions 10 to the power 91 (virtual certainty!) with his hypothesis ASSUMPTIONS. This is at best pathetic!! Tell you what I'll do. I will offer a $0.01 bet AGAINST this scenario unfolding as outlined. Anyone willing to grab it? I will only expect say 10 to the power 6 odds (million to one) Think of what a great deal that would be ..the spread is still 10 to the power 85 in your favour. Even better I will GIVE you the cent either way...

one last add-on. I wonder what pathway Russia would follow to invade Israel. Would that be through the Caucasus? Sorry, since the collapse of the Russian empire, Georgia and Azerbaijan have gone their own way...call it following the oily black road. Who controls the big military bases in both countries today?..oh that would be the USA as part of the war on terrorism, or is to protect access to oil as per the recent pipeline connecting Baku, Tbilsk and Ceyhan in Turkey. There are enormous American military stockpiles in these bases that would support a US push south to Tehran if needed or anywhere else for that matter. Remember how upset folks were when Turkey refused to allow deployment of US forces through their country to invade Iraq? well not to worry -there is now a huge jumpoff point with US flags flying right where historic Gog and MaGog resided.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Here's an interesting and thought provoking article on the different theories of the Gog/Magog coalition. It's long but it fits in with our discussion.

http://www.contenderministries.org/p...gogmagogPF.php

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I know God has given me His love for his people- Israel and His word, like you say (ZG) it is hard to look with love on the noisy, selfish, superficial people we rub shoulders with---my tendency is resentment--but this is not how I see Christ reacting and that's what bothers me--I need His love in my heart for those around me with the walkmans and harleys and loud bikes who are tuned into oblivion. I fight my resentments to them a lot . One way I can show love is to pray for them---but still I would like to have that passion of love for them in my heart. As I see the world darken I feel like sneeking off to a dark corner with my bible to grumble and pray toGod and stay away form it all---but I am convicted because God wants me out in the world making a difference.

[Humble]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

That's exactly how I feel Wendyj.
Nothing would be finer than to build a cabin up in the Northwoods, just to be free from all of the distractions and bad news of the world.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Wendy,several in my church ride Harleys ! I know some of the walkman people are believers too!!! but i know what you mean.....
we are in the world but not of it......... I do go to the mountians when i can.
but living up there, after a week i would be ready for noise and people. AND i HAVE to be Doing something..... we are called to be ambassadors, not hermits ........ Lewis

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

SandyLion: thanks for the post. I found the article very easy to read and quite helpful. I am glad the author did not claim anything like 10 to the 91st power certainty for the interpretation given (as in the Kinsella article). In this article the conclusion is that the "invasion" by Gog is an Islamic coalition. I offer a few comments/questions for readers to consider. First if Ezekiel took the time to name Persia, Cush and Put along with Gog/MaGog, Tubal and Meshech he could have easily mentioned Syria, Jordan and Egypt as well. To suggest that they are covered by the phrase "many people with you" strikes me as pretty lame when these countries have been so heavily involved in anti-Israel wars in the past. I offer the alternative view that these particular countries are not named because they are in fact not involved in the Gog enterprise (you can dig through the 800+ posts and find my reasons for saying that or I could simply state it again if there was any interest.)

I went to my Bible to see what rationale is mentioned for the "invasion" in Ezekiel 38. Article claimed: "The first reason God gives for the invasion in Ezekiel 38 is a desire by the coalition to cover the Jewish land and wipe them off the face of the earth" Well I looked high and low for a long time- sorry I cannot find anything like that in my Bible. To state this and then build a whole rationale that the Muslims have always wanted to wipe Israel out so therefore Gog invasion = Muslim invasion is unfair, OK I will go the whole distance and say DISHONEST!!! It's spoil they are after not wiping anybody out. Please help me somebody on this point!!

The article does not explain who Gog is. This is an important point because there are only two folks named in prophecy in the Old Testament as having important roles vis a vis Israel and Gog is one of them. Now it is fine to say "I don't know" or "someday some guy with a cute name like Gog will show up" but folks you cannot ignore the name- it is a major part of the prophecy.

Next point : in the article where is the USA in all of this? Not mentioned in the list of countries. Does not seem concerned about the invasion (whether from a defence of Israel standpoint or perhaps at least defence of American strategic interests in the area..like oil) Folks America is the only superpower in the world. An invasion of this magnitude would merit some sort of response.

Another point: why does God speak about using a "hook in the jaws" to drag Gog and his coalition into Israel? It seems in the article that there are plenty of reasons for the Muslims to invade to wipe out the Jews and grab spoil without God having to DRAG them in..

Sorry folks. I probably sound like a broken record by now but these articles have major weaknesses. I do agree with a main point that the author makes regarding the response of God.."they (the nations) will know that I am the Lord" Amen to that!


So...While you are waiting for Russian hordes to sweep into Israel, or an Islamic jihad to "wipe out the Jews", keep one ear cocked to the radio/TV and pray it doen't refer to US Marines being deployed quietly to implement a Palestinian state in the west bank area. I'm not spinning a fish story either..although there is a big hook involved for somebody!!

[Humble]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

So...While you are waiting for Russian hordes to sweep into Israel, or an Islamic jihad to "wipe out the Jews", keep one ear cocked to the radio/TV and pray it doen't refer to US Marines being deployed quietly to implement a Palestinian state in the west bank area. I'm not spinning a fish story either..although there is a big hook involved for somebody!!


I don't think the U.S. is going to have any part of this invasion...at all!
If we do, it'll be post-harpazo, and Hillary will be leading the charge.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I suspect that many Americans are beginning to feel squeamish, uneasy, and suspicious about our posts

[Humble]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I suspect that many Americans are beginning to feel squeamish, uneasy, and suspicious about our posts

If it awakens them out of their stupor, then it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Besides, better to feel squeamish and uneasy, than to feel the wrath of a Holy God.