Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Whenever I get “lost,” I go back to my spotlight, and begin scanning texts for guidelines.

As it pertains to the question of the rapture and time lines in Revelation, I stumbled upon these connections. .

The prime text relating to the rapture of the Church, is, in my opinion, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where it says::

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Then I jumped to Revelation 11:11-12, where it definitely speaks of resurrection, and lo and behold the same word “cloud” jumped out at me.

“And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And to cap it all–-in my opinion–-Revelation 1:1, and Revelation 11:12 both use the term “Come up hither,” which is definitely a call to resurrection in Rev 11:12. Its use inclines me to believe that it is a call to another resurrection (which the Rapture of the Church certainly is) in Revelation 4:1, where John's location and perspective are used as a type of the resurrection, and removal, and glorification of the church

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZG,

Concerning your two outstanding issues- is the Rapture before or after Ez 38; and does one's attitude concerning prophesy affect his/her security with Christ?

1) If you look back to the first few posts in this thread, lewisb reiterated his long-standing belief that the Gog invasion is, in his opinion, the 2nd seal of Revelation, and if you believe that the 21 judgements of Revelation are all part of the Tribulation, then the conclusion is drawn, if you're a pre-tribber, that the Gog invasion is after the Rapture. However, the original scenario posted in this thread concerned a possibility that the Gog invasion was not a Russian invasion at all, but rather part of a UN enforcement of the Israeli settlement withdrawal. In that case, it could occur before the Rapture. I haven't read all 1000+ posts, but I don't believe we have collectively reached a concensus on which countries, and under what scenario, constitute the Gog invasion force. I do believe however, that we agree that the key thing about the invasion is that the result of the invasion is God's direct intervention, in such a way that leaves no doubt who is doing it.

2) This is just my opinion, but I've always felt that one's salvation does not depend on his/her belief in Biblical prophesy, the meaning of this term, as we use it on this board, referring to predictions of the future as foretold in the Bible. Our salvation depends on one's repentence and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Savior. That's really it, and that's really the simple part. It's the way we live out that faith that's hard. If our salvation depends on our attitude toward prophesy, then there are a whole bunch of Christians who are in real trouble, for a lot of Christians look at prophesy as just a bunch of baloney. Many just ignore it. They acknowledge it, but discount it as being irrelevant. Martin Luther for example. While prophesy instructs us about Jesus Christ (Rev 19:10) and assures us of the authenticity of the Bible, it's our belief in Christ and his forgiveness of our sins that is at the core of Christianity, and is the key to our salvation.

My $.02

WLNF

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Dear WLNF

I will deal with your last answer first.

I agree and am sure that a believer's comprehension of prophetic matters has nothing to do with one's position in Christ Jesus. Appropriating His work on the cross determines that completely, once and for all.

I cannot remember if the point was hinted at in this thread, or if I read it somewhere else, but the claim was made that believers will have to clean up their acts by going through a degree of purging on this earth before they are fit to meet Christ. Therefore, they might have to go through the terrors leading up to the Gog invasion or whatever.

When I hear folks make this point I wonder if they remember that even Peter backslid into racial prejudice and pride after he received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. Also Paul himself had to apologize for insulting the High Priest on one very public occasion, and he was meaner with John Mark than others were with him. If we had to be completely prepared for the rapture of the church based on our performance, none of us would enter the Pearly Gates

As to the Gog invasion! The judgments following upon it are so extensive and worldwide, that if God intends to save believers at large from the Tribulation to come, then I do not see how the church can be here during that time. I can appreciate Lewisb's conclusion about Gog's invasion coming under the heading of one of the Revelation seals.

And while we are on the subject of a possible Russia-Gog connection: I believe that the sudden halt in the fortunes of the EU will drive the Eastern European nations--who were warning up to the EU and the West up until last week--right back into the arms of Mother Russia. And they will be right in time to furnish the "Gomer and all his bands..." of Ezekiel 38:6. America will make it easy by all Her talk about Israel being in "occupied territories," and about "disengagement," but Russia, leading Iran a couple others will do the hands-on dirty work

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZionGene,

I found this interesting article tonight on WND. It "hints at" (to quote DtB ) a possible answer to a question you floated some time ago. The link to the entire article is:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=44869

Probe sought on Gaza evac
Sharon accused of hatching plan to thwart criminal investigation

---

Posted: June 19, 2005
2:45 p.m. Eastern

A Knesset member today requested Israel's attorney general probe claims made in a newly released book that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon introduced his plan to evacuate Jewish communities from Gaza and parts of the West Bank to divert public attention from criminal investigations that threatened his premiership last year, WND has learned.

"I have sent a formal request letter to Israel's attorney general [Meni Mazuz] asking him to investigate the prime minister because of the revelations in the book that prove Sharon is corrupt. We know exactly who are the people involved in the scandal, what they did, so there needs to be an immediate investigation," National Union leader Uri Ariel told WND.

Clearly at this late date there is little real value in wailing and gnashing one's teeth about "WHY" - but thought provoking, never the less.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Not even Saul or Ahab--the two most ungodly leaders in Israel of old--did get in cohoots with the enemy. Both of them were killed while fighting for Israel. But this man! Ugh!

I heard a commentator on Arutz Sheva say this morning, that that man should be tried for treason; then executed; and then have his ashes spread over Gush Katif.

What loathing and despite he is provoking! I am embarassed and ashamed to know that he is a Jew.

(PlumBob, did you know that if the story in that link was not brought out in parliament in Israel, that the public would hardly hear about it. A radio station interviewed the writers of the book on the subject, but the main newspapers, who should be clamoring for an inquiry, are largely ignoring the story)

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

PlumBob, the courts and the Attorney General in Israel won't do a thing! I hope that God will. What an immoral spectacle!

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZG,

I agree with everything you said about the Gog invasion and a person's salvation not being dependent on their attitude toward prophesy.

I am TOTALLY baffled by Sharon, and by Bush for that matter. Bush's statement essentially calling Israel an "occupier" and Condie's latest statements that the turnover of settlements being key to the peace process shouldn't go unchallenged. Maybe they are, especially by the evangelical council that meets with the White House representatives every week, and we just don't hear about it. Moreover, Hamas has gone on record as saying that the turning over of the settlements will in no way stop their armed goal of acquiring ALL of "the occupied land". Yet, we promise $3B to the Palestinians to make "peace" happen.

Anymore, I just shake my head in amazement. But then, I realize that all this is part of a larger plan that has been foretold for thousands of years. I guess we need to focus more on what we know will result from all this rather than on the near term activities. When we do that, it's more comforting in a way but no less amazing in its own right.

WLNF

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Dear WLNF

When I was a little child, my family was very poor. I did not have lunch money, nor shoes to wear many days. Also, I came from a broken home. And guess what baffled me then WLNF? I was mistreated by my teachers and other children as if I was a criminal. I remember going off by myself many times and asking God what was so wrong about me.

As I began to study the bible and gain more experience, I recognized the fact that human nature is indeed fallen and wicked, and that the crowd is generally going in an evil and wrong direction. I had experienced and proven on a personal level, that even children have a secret disdain for one who is weak, or is known to want to do right. We are affected by the Fall more than we realize

Now here we have a situation where Ms. Rice does not say that a cessation of terroriism is the key to peace, but that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is. That is simply not true. You mean to tell me ,that for over fifty years of violence--long before Mr. Sharon came up with his expulsion plan of three of so years ago--that the underlying cause for a lack of peace in the middleast, was because Israel had not wihdrawn from Gaza? What caused the lack of peace before Israel captured Gaza in 1967?

But Israel is the "poor" whipping boy at this time, and She can do no right. It just simply amazes me how the truth is twisted in this case. And look how the "Settlers," who have invested up to 40 years of their lives where they are, at the encouragement of their government: look at how they are now been portrayed as demonic. It is planned to put these families in trailers, after evicting them by force. Can you imagine that!

But I can understand how Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush and the Arabs and Mrs Rice and the EU may all be deceived and not know it, but the most evil of them in my opinion is that present leader of Israel. The Gentile nations--all of them-- are getting in a position to receive a smack in the mouth, and Israel is toying with The Time Of Jacob's Trouble

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

When I was a little child, my family were very poor. I did not have lunch money, nor shoes to wear many days. Also, I came from a broken home. And guess what baffled me then WLNF? I was mistreated by my teachers and other children as if I was a criminal. I remember going off by myself many times and asking God what was so wrong about me.

As I began to study the bible and gain more experience, I recognized the fact that human nature is indeed fallen and wicked, and that the crowd is generally going in an evil and wrong direction. I had experienced and proven on a personal level, that even children have a secret disdain for one who is weak, or is known to want to do right. We are affected by the Fall more than we realize (emphasis added)

ZionGene, I believe that you are becoming more acutely able to bring this matter to its true focus, with each passing day. Which is likely to be another indicator of the approaching end-of-the-matter.

The Gentile nations--all of them-- are getting in a position to receive a smack in the mouth, and Israel is toying with The Time Of Jacob's Trouble

I am reminded of the example, however, of Abraham in the story that concludes:

Gen 18:32 Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten." NASB

Perhaps we need to begin an ernest prayer vigil, that God will not smack All of the Gentile nations in the mouth too terribly hard, if only for the sake of those of us here who are faithful to Him.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZG, I agree with PlumBob. Your level of discernment in these matters appears to be growing rapidly, and you are a blessing to all of us. We can all learn from you. Please continue as you are able.

WLNF

[Doug Fowler]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

A lot of that stuff that happens like when you were in school, ZG, has to do with how much God lets happen to us, knowing some can handle it and some caan't. I am very fragile emotionally, what one might call hypersensitive, and I'd cry quite easily at just a raaised voice. However, I was never teased about my very low vision (I can still read normal print with my nose to the page) nor did anyone mistreat me in grade school. Indeed, when I got to first grade, some kids would pick me up and carry me up the steps and down, unsureof how well I could see. I know another girl who was teased a lot, though, & mistreaated, & she eventually left the school, but not before being a great friend to me and helping me come out of my shell. (Not that I didn't still need stuffed animal "imaginary friends" later but that's another story.) She is a faithful Christian today, but I could never have gone through what she did, I needed a lot more encouragement.

So, we're all going to fall short because of the Fall, true. But, there is some genetics that factors into things, too, and some stuff that God just doesn't let happen to certain peple because H knows they can't handle it.

The sad part is that some people give up, thinking they can't handle it, because they don't realize how resilient they can be with God helping. I wasn't saved then & didn't think much about prayer, nor in Junior High when there were problems, but I still had faith God would help me, and He has. It's just been a little tougher for me without a lot of encouragement; a couple law cases I still slept with stuffed animals while doing them, because I hate litigation/confrontation so much, & I got in a little further than I should have; a couple especially I shoudl have realized the Lord didn't want me to take. It's just a gift God's given me, the gift of faith & not being afraid to get what the world might call "childish" when I have to to feel secure. And, I do feel that way.

God has lots of ways to make us feel secure - some need more than others. The saddest part, as I say, are those who feel they don't need Him or anything to feel secure. I think that's what Israel is doing right now - they're trying to be all macho and act like they don't need any help; but soon they're going to realize they need the Lord to intervene. I think back to how "when they say peace and safety, sudden destruction shall come upon them," aand I wonder, how secure will they be when they say this? WIll it be a suppsoed real peace, or just a facaade? I'm thinking just a facade now.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I am reminded of the example, however, of Abraham in the story that concludes: Perhaps we need to begin an ernest prayer vigil, that God will not smack All of the Gentile nations in the mouth too terribly hard, if only for the sake of those of us here who are faithful to Him.[/QUOTE]

In speaking of the Gentile nations---I think of Lot --who was not even that straight of an arrow---he was spared. I think of my own situation married to a man who is not a Christian but who is very moral and quite a straight arrow--I know scripture tells me that he is sanctified through the faith of his wife, me. This to me means that he is set apart and I would hope if our nation Canada is judged that God would spare our family and families like us. Canada is trying to pass same sex marriages nationally (7 Provinces have already), and our Ontario University honoured H MOrgontaler for his work in establishing Abortion--Canada is ripe for judgement even without being involved in pushing our brothres out of their houses in Isreal.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

God speaks of putting "...hooks into thy jaws," in Ezekiel 38:4. I was being a bit more gentle by using "smack in the mouth."

I notice where PlumBob emphasized the sparing of Sodom, if ten godly individuals were to be found in it. Well, I am sure that there are many tens of thousands of believers in Christ in the world today, for whose sake He would spare the world at this time also. And that is another reason why I believe that the Triblulation Period (Revelation 5 and beyond) will not commece while there is a single believer in Christ in the world. Not only the tens of thousands of them, but every single one will be out of this world at the point where the Dav Of Vengeance Of Our God is initiated. That is what Lot's extrication from Sodom teaches us.

Later on during that dreadful time, God will mericfully begin to offer grace and salvation through the preaching of the Two Witnesses. One hundred and forty four thousand Jews will be won to Christ through them; then through the ministry of this group a great multitude of Gentiles will be won to Christ. But the take-it-or-leave-it approach to the gospel message, which characerized pre-rapture days will be gone. Those who believe will pay with their blood, and those who do not believe will not be given a second chance

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I am sure that there are many tens of thousands of believers in Christ in the world today, for whose sake He would spare the world at this time also. And that is another reason why I believe that the Triblulation Period (Revelation 5 and beyond) will not commece while there is a single believer in Christ in the world. Not only the tens of thousands of them, but every single one will be out of this world at the point where the Dav Of Vengeance Of Our God is initiated. That is what Lot's extrication from Sodom teaches us. Later on during that dreadful time, God will mericfully begin to offer grace and salvation through the preaching of the Two Witnesses. One hundred and forty four thousand Jews will be won to Christ through them; then through the ministry of this group a great multitude of Gentiles will be won to Christ. But the take-it-or-leave it approach to the gospel message, which characerized pre-rapture days will be gone. Those who believe will pay with their blood, and those who do not believe will not be given a second chance.

Excellent post, ZionGene!

There Wendy! That's exactly what I was trying to say yesterday in Precepts about the reason why I believe the Rapture of the Church must happen before the great and terrible day of the Lord. God will not pour out His wrath on those who have looked to the sacrifice of Jesus, who received in his body the punishment for our sins by the bearing of the wrath of God once and for all. This wrath is for those who refuse the free gift now. Those who believe by the witness of the two or the 144,000 will find their way to heaven only by their deaths.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZG--remember in Ezekiel when Zedekiah and gang are in for destruction in Jerusalem , just before Neb goes for invasion #3---God sent an angel to mark on the head those who were faithful so they would be saved. I dont mind going through whatever God has for me, no matter how hard because He will stand by and His strength is made perfect in weakness and His grace is sufficient for even me.

I long for his coming and for Him to put everything to right, I feel vexed and so sad in my soul for what I see taking place in the nations-the hipocracy and Godlessness. I feel like a lone voice crying in the wilderness, even Christians are too distracted with socials and scripted sermons -40 days of this and 40 days of that--to listen to God's word and to study hard. I have a heart for God and His word but am somewhat antisocial of late. I dont want to sound more holy because , man-- I hang on to my wild stallion of a life often by the grace of God. I am pleased by His grace He has called me to watch and pray. And I am pleased that for once I have obeyed and submit to HIs will. And I wonder if the time is shortly up for the Gentiles.

Rapture: I think---before the trib, as this is Jacobs trouble, and God rescues His own when judgement has fallen in the past. Maybe the birth pang thing will be bad enough. I bought a book by James Goll on praying for Israel so that is what I'm doing now.