Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

HSB, at the beginning of July, some people I know will begin a time of special prayer and fasting, that the God Of Abraham Isaac and Jacob would rise and protect His people from this man. BUT HSB! But! God may just stand aside and allow all of them--Israel, Mr. Sharon, Ms. Rice, Mr. Bush et. al.--to be given over to Satan for destrucion, and to let rivers of Jewish blood be shed because their wilful dispisite of His stated will in this case

Count me in to pray and fast at that time. I recieved an email that told of someone who witnesses to Jews in the land. He states that it is so sad
bacause the Jews dont read the NTestament. And there Old Testament is quite changed and watered down from ours , having been through the years chnged to reflect important rabbi's opinions. For example Isaiah 53 is quite different.

This having been said, my heart goes out to our Jewish brothers as how can they know the truth if: they feel that they are sinning to read the NT, their OT is changed , and they have grown up learning that Yeshua was an unrightousman who didnt obey the laws, who had a mom and dad, and who they are accused and persecuted for killing.

I especially feel for those devote people who are trying so hard to obey all the laws and who fall short of the glory of God who live in the diengagement zones. This morning I cried before God for mercy for his people for somehow someway for His WORD to find them and for Him to give them ears to hear and receptive hearts. I also would pray that God would strike down Sharon and Yes, even Bush if they wont listen to God, before they curse their people, and counties.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Dear Wendyj

Maybe it is high time that all of us do pray like that. The presumption in this case is so so great. I dare to say that all the players in this dreadful business have been warned.

INCIDENTALLY, I personally will not be referring to the present Prime Minister of Israel by the names by which he is presently known. From now on, he is "that man" as far as I am concerned. Some have given the name "Divers" to the rich man who was outside of Abraham's bosom looking in, but I do not think that that man deserves as much

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

There is also that other business in dealing with our Jewish friends.

It tears at my heart to hear the folks at Israel National Radio and Arutz Sheva talk about religious matters. It does not occur to them for a second that they might have been wrong about the identity of the Messiah, and have completely missed Him. And the best that they can recommend for us Gentiles, are the seven laws of Noah, and they are completely oblivious to the fact that many of us have a personal relationship with their God. And the ironic thing is, that they will trust the false messiah with open arms, who will capitalize on their desperate circumstances.

I wonder how God feels about these so-very good religious people, who are about to be mistreated by their own government. They are dead set against the very One who can put in a good word on their behalf to the Father, and completely rescue them at this time. When I think of these things, the only comfort I get is that God promised in Ezekiel 37 to come to their rescue and help and restoration well before their spiritual regeneration

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Remember the Babylonian captivity? When the 70 years were up almost, Daniel-- who had been watching the scriptures and paying attn to prophesy (Jeramiah), got on his knees before the Most High God and he prayed on his own behalf and on behalf of his people. He confessed their sin, and told God how righteous He was and how dispicable they all had been. He called on God to look on them and see their desolation and reminded God that he was not calling on Him in righteousness but because of God's great mercy. Daniel 9:19 says Lord listen, forgive, hear us and act. For Your sake, do not delay for your city and your people bear your name.

I wish the Jewish people in Israel would pray the entire chapter 9 ---Daniels prayer to their merciful God and since God is truth, they should ask Him to reveal the truth about Yeshua as His Son to them just like Nicodemus, but thy need an open heart. They would have every thing to gain. Jewish people who do embrace Yeshua do have an awful cost as many of their families blacklist them afterwards, bu tYeshua told us all to consider the cost.

[agrace]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Still following this marathon thread!

HSB, today on Free Republic I saw a thread discussing the Druze Arab IDF soldiers' refusal to aid in the withdrawal - apparently a Druze Knesset member is introducing legislation to try to exempt them - as well as mention of the Golani Brigade's refusal. One of the comments really jumped out at me; it was said, and I paraphrase,

"The Israeli leftists all want someone else to do the dirty work. Is Sharon going to evict 8000 people all by himself?"

Which of course immediately brought to mind the earlier discussions of outside forces going in to do it. Unnerving.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

agrace, maybe that man himself should go down there and throw them out, all by his presumptous self.

I get the feeling that God is preparing a trap and that the wicked are rushing unwittingly into it.

I notice where Rabbi Singer reminded us on Israel National Radio last night, that Ms. Rice's father is a PCUSA Presbyterian minister. And we know how that group loves Israel not.

It appears to me that in these last days, that God has already begun to separate the sheep from the goats, and I marvel how that those who believe that the bible is the verbally inspired word of God are gathering on one side of this expulsion business, and those who do not, are lining up on the opposite side. How interesing to so that theology is about to determine the fate of nations. "Church" cannot be separated from "state" however one tries.

The wise understand all this, but the wicked only does wickedly

[Doug Fowler]

On Judges, and the first demand for a king

I recall a thread earlier that there was just a tiny bit of speculation that some poeple wanted a king over Israel. So, a little connecting...

I was just reading in Judges lately how everyone did that which was right in their own sight so often, and God allowed the Hebrews to keep going in that vicious cycle - backsliding, idolatry, repentence, and deliverance, basically. And, thinking to myself.

What we have seen in Israel, IMO, is a pattern much like in Judges. Not exactly sure how this one will pan out, but I keep thinking about how Israel then clamored for a king after so long in that cycle. They got King SAul - not the man God had chosen. If they hadn't clamored for Saul, what would have happened? My hunch is David would have arisen anyway when God's timing was right, perhaps making the transition from judge to king? But, that's not importan right now.

In the same way, God wants the people to come and receive Yeshua by faaith. He is the Anointed one of Israel. But, we know that the Israelis will choose a false prince - the Antichrist. Will he be chosen as their king, or won't he? I'll have to read more, but while many discuss the BAbylonian captivity, I am struck by the way in which this is shaping up as the Book of Judges does.

Indeed, numerous times Israel has won victories, then given them back. Not just after the Sox Day War, but after they went into Lebanon in the early 1980s. They have had the enemy totally on the run in numerous wars, yet they have kept falling back, jsut like the nation did in Judges. And, whatever happens, it would not surprise me if the end result is that the people of Israel, tired of this mess of ministers going back ont heir word, unable to delier promises, and so on, clamor for a king.

Best case scenario for Israel - God does the spectacular in July, they get a reprieve when the Palestinians are wiped out, and there is revival, massive revival. Worst case - the AC winds up sending troops in to help evict the settlers, they are successful and Israel thus clamors for the AC to be their leader & confirms that 7-year covenant, and God starts to pour out His fury on the whole earth. In which case we, the church, will be leaving faster than I can say Armageddon outta here.

And, right now, those two seem plausible, as does everything in between. There were quiet times when a judge succeeded another judge, and some pretty bad times, too. But, the end result, after all that, was that each man was doing what seemed right in his own sight. And, sadly, the whole world seems to be doing that now, following the crowd.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

agrace: really nice to hear from you. I agree totally with the conclusion that outsiders will be needed. ZionGene has put it quite aptly: "I get the feeling that God is preparing a trap and that the wicked are rushing unwittingly into it." While the settlers may feel that they are in increasingly desperate straits, God is quietly preparing to "hook" the outsiders into israel to display His own power and authority. Things are certainly getting interesting!! Let's hope and pray that the US Iraq "exit strategy" does NOT involve a role in Israel.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Mr Fowler

It appears to me that that man is as near to Saul, the first king in Israel as any man can be. He acts as if he is a king, and broke his own word and that of the nation to the "Settlers," just as Saul did to the Gibeonites and to David, who he pursued, even after promising that he would not. May that man be like Saul in many other ways

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Regarding replacement theology: where does the Catholic Church stand?
Also where does that church stand in regards to Israel?
How do the Replacement-ites defend their position?

Interesting ---when I talked with one of the Jews in Israel , he told me that after mcuh persecution and blaming of Jews by Christians, he recognizes a new spirit of love in Christians visiting Jerusalem and talking with him. This is exciting to me as God promises a new spirit---a heart of flesh. Maybe this is taking place as this man recognizes the spirit of Yeshua, and if he is now recognizing a new spirit I ask why, maybe he is being given insight.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Dear wendyj

I would give you a run-down on what I consider a demonic doctrine--Replacement Theology, that is--but it would be too depressing for me to speak to that subject again in detail. HSB or someone else may want to fill you in. Don Brooks seems capable to such a task. And there is PlumBob

I will tell you that I knew a young man who was genuinly converted to Christ from a life of debauchery and the occult. I came to know him personally, and he had such joy in the Lord. He was on his way to become a great preacher.

This young may went off to a bible school, which taught that like Judas and Satan, the Jews fell away from favor with God permanently, and that God had put a certain church group in their place. That school also scoffed at the idea of Christ coming to take His Church and to set up His kingdom, simply because the kingdom had come, they claimed, through them--the New Israel, the Covenant Family--whicn included all their children, their kin, and their social group.

That teaching affected and depressed the young man to the extent that he committed suicide

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Wendyj: there is a logic to replacement theology..simply put it is that God tolerated the continual backsliding of the Jews until they killed His Own Son. Forty years were then given for repentence, afterwhich the nation was judged and utterly destroyed. God then chose a new people for Himself (the Gentiles) who became the new Israel-a "replacement" bride. The old physical promises all became spiritualized. The "Law" was finished. As the Church withstood centuries of persecution it spread and eventually conquered Roman paganism. The blessings of the "kingdom of God" came to earth as privilege, wealth and power were aggregated. The Pope became Christ on Earth, with temporal as well as spiritual power over the universal flock.
Now this ignores St. Paul's discussion about the restoration of the "natural branches" outlined in Romans. Also how does one respond when the "original spouse" shows up at the door again in 1948, reborn as it were in "one day". Well you ignore it, hoping it will go away. Perhaps the same way the holocaust was "ignored" by much/most of Christendom. While mass executions and cremation ovens were nasty business, the Nazis were in fact clearing Europe of the Christ killers and the "dirty Jews". Do not forget that there was widespread anti-semitism on this side of the ocean for many years.
For centuries the "Holy Land" was utterly desolate, barren, forsaken land. Then like a modern day miracle it has been resettled. It blooms like a rose. Now a majority of Jews in the world are located in Israel.
If you follow the reasoning of replacement theology all of this is an aberation that will pass. The "corpse" is sleepwalking; it is not destined for life; it has no future.
The alternative of course is that replacement theology is in serious error, that God never "gave up" on the Jew, but in a loving way has sustained them through the centuries, and in our time has returned them to the Land. From the famine of the last 20 centuries he is bringing them to the feet of the Son they despised and rejected. Like Joseph of old He will clear the room of Gentiles and do some "family business" one day soon. It will be a time of weeping but also great joy when this restoration occurs. I as a Gentile will cheer! The literal promises of the Old Testament prophets are being fulfilled. Anyone or anything that stands in the way of this reconciliation will be smashed by divine wrath. That is why we should not intervene to take away from the Jews what God has graciously given them..this tiny little strip of land and mountains in the West Bank- the ancient Promised Land.
Regarding salvation there has only ever been one way to God, that is through faith as outlined in Hebrews 11. In this respect there is no difference between Jew and Gentile; we all come through the same doorway!

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Israel - Middle East
Thursday, June 09, 2005
Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor
A reader took exception to my characterization of a Palestinian state as a 'terrorist state' and emailed me to tell me so. The Palestinians, he explained, were only using terror because they have no other weapon with which to fight against Israeli 'occupation' of Palestinian lands.


The Israelis bring the terror upon themselves, argued my correspondent. Palestinian terror is the result of resistance to Israeli occupation. Remove the occupation and the resistance will end. Etc., etc., ad nauseam.

The argument sounds plausible enough. It seems to be the logic behind the shift of US support to a return to the 1949 armistice lines as a final solution to the conflict under the terms of the US-inspired Road Map to Peace effort.

End what the Arabs define as 'the occupation' ie; a return to the 1949 Armistice lines, and there will nothing for the resistance to resist. Peace at last! Simple.

In reality the argument breezes right by 'simple' -- not stopping until it gets to 'stupid'. The argument is 'stupid' -- but it is built on what would more rightly be termed willful ignorance.

In the years between 1949 and 1967, Israel stayed within the 1949 Armistice lines now being championed as the solution to terrorism against Israel. There was no 'occupation' to resist.

The 1949 Armistice lines gave what is today called 'occupied Palestinian territory' in what the Jews call Judea and Samaria to Jordan. Jerusalem was divided into Jordanian East Jerusalem and Israeli West Jerusalem.

The Gaza Strip was, according to the agreed-on 1949 Armistice lines, given to Egypt. Jordanians settled in their territory and Egypt sent settlers into theirs to establish possession. There was no territory under dispute that was 'occupied' in any meaningful sense.

The world had accepted the 1949 lines and the existence of the State of Israel as a legally established member state of the United Nations, whether the Arabs accepted it philosophically or not.

Remember, the issue under discussion is the removal of the 'occupation' as a solution to Arab 'resistance'.

In the years 1951-1955, while Israel was inside the 1949 Armistice lines and there was neither an 'occupation' nor a 'resistance' 503 Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks emanating from the Jordanian West Bank.

Another 358 Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks emanating from Egypt's Gaza Strip.

Terrorist attacks launched from Lebanon and Syria killed another 61 Israelis. Then, as now, the majority of the attacks were launched against population centers and the majority of the targets were innocent Israeli civilians.

For example, on June 11, 1953 terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death. The victims weren't collateral damage of a 'legitimate act of resistance' to some 'illegal occupation' -- they were a young couple planning a life together in their own country who were deliberately targeted and murdered.

On March 17, 1954, terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers.

The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers died in the attack. Survivors said the terrorists spat on the bodies of their victims. The attack was launched from Jordan's West Bank.

In 1957, a kibbutz farmer was killed and two others wounded by a Jordanian landmine; another was killed from ambush as he worked in the fields.

In 1958, two fishermen were shot and killed as they fished; a motorist was ambushed near Sharon. . . this wasn't resistance to an 'occupation'.

It was a 'resistance' to the existence of the State of Israel.

In 1965, TWO YEARS BEFORE the Six Days' War that created the so-called 'occupation' that is the alleged justification for Palestinian 'resistance', Yasser Arafat's Fatah attempted its first terrorist operation against Israel when it tried to bomb Israel's National Water Carrier.

Israel was in 1965 still within the 1949 Armistice lines, the so-called 'occupied territories' were part of Jordan, but the "Palestine Liberation Organization" was already in existence.

If Jordan and Egypt were in possession of the so-called 'occupied' territories in 1965, and if the Palestine Liberation Organization's first attack was against Israel and NOT Jordan, then where is the 'Palestine' that Fatah was created to 'liberate'?

I'll wait and give you a few seconds to think about it.

Ready? I want you to get this, so I am typing slowly. . . the 'Palestine' that the PLO was created to 'liberate' -- the 'occupied territory' against which the Palestinians are 'resisting' . . . is the Israel that existed as defined by the 1949 Armistice lines.

We return, for a moment, to my original assessment that the 'simple' solution slid past 'simple' and all the way to 'stupid' -- it doesn't sound so harsh anymore.

The 'occupation' created by the capture of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 is a smokescreen.

That isn't to say that the PA doesn't want the 'occupied territories' of Judea, Samaria and Gaza -- but they are a means to an end, not the end itself.

The ethnic cleansing of Jews from the territories outside the 1949 Armistice lines is only the first step in the greater historical goal of the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the "Palestine" the PLO was created to 'liberate'. Israel.

In the thirty years from 1960 to 1990, 704 Israelis died from terrorist attacks, including terror attacks against Israeli targets abroad.

In 1993, Israel signed its 'memorandum of understanding' with Yasser Arafat that resulted in Israel's disastrous policy of trading portions of the captured territory to Palestinian control in exchange for peace with the Palestinians.

Over the course of seven years, the deal expanded until what began as a deal to give the PA limited autonomy over Jericho became all the West Bank, the Gaza strip, and a demand that Israel withdraw to within the pre-1967 borders.

How much peace did Israel get in exchange for trading away half its territory? From the signing of the Declaration of Principles outlining the exchange of land for peace until Arafat launched the Oslo War in September 2000, 256 Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks. That's a period of precisely seven years.

In the preceding thirty years of terror that brought Israel to its knees, 704 Israelis were killed. Averaged over the decades, ummm, 704 divided by three decades . . . that's an average of 234 victims of terrorist attacks per decade.

'Peace', therefore, killed more Israelis in seven years than war did, on average, in the preceding thirty years!

The 'peace' for Israel ended when Arafat rejected a settlement that was tantamount to an Israeli surrender to demands that were beyond his wildest dreams when Oslo was first signed in 1993.

Arafat's rejection of the Camp David Accords, a virtual surrender to Palestinian terror, has, as of April, killed more than 1,058 Israelis, again, mostly innocent civilians deliberately selected as targets.

The Oslo formula of trading land for peace has therefore resulted in more Israeli deaths from terrorism since September 1993 than all the terrorist attacks from 1949 to 1993 combined.

Here is the interesting thing about this whole thing. At least, it is the thing that stands out as the most inexplicable part of it. It isn't selective propaganda -- it is recent history.

Sixty years isn't that long a period of time, but it is evidently long enough for selective propaganda to create a mythical Palestinian people out of displaced Jordanian and Egyptian terrorists.

But Oslo was only twelve years ago. And the terrorism continues unabated. And somehow, history is being revised as it happens.
(continued)

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

The Palestinian intentions are clear and unmistakable. They are borne out by history, year by year, for each of Israel's fifty-seven years of continual conflict against an enemy whose goal is Israel's annihilation.

During the 1967 War, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir stood before the global press corps to defend the war, saying, "the Arabs can fight, and lose, and come back to fight another day. Israel can only lose once."

I've yet to hear anybody mount a logical argument to the contrary.

None of this is unknown to the leaders of the European Union. Or the leaders of the Russian Federation. Or the diplomats at the United Nations.

One would think that even the United States government might have analysts clever enough to detect a pattern here and realize the objective isn't Palestinian statehood but Israeli annihilation.

So it can't be chalked up to ignorance in the usual sense. It is willful ignorance. Deliberate, willful ignorance adopted by a conscious choice to ignore the facts and participate instead in what is, in the final analysis, a global conspiracy against Israel's existence.

The chosen target for the coming flashpoint is Jerusalem. Since there isn't a world leader on the planet who doesn't have analysts who can see the same thing we can, they know that forcing Israel back behind 1949 lines won't end the terror. And they also know that Israel will not surrender East Jerusalem by accepting the imposition of the 1949 Armistice lines.

Two thousand, five hundred years ago, (think of it!) the prophet Zechariah described the events that would lead up to the coming of Israel's Messiah.

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zechariah 12:10)

Zechariah was probably born in Babylon and was among those priests who returned to Jerusalem after the Captivity in the group led by Zerubbabel. This would place the beginning of Zechariah's work as a prophet around the month of November, 520 BC.

In his lifetime, 'Israel' had not existed for two hundred years. Judah was under Persian occupation. The Temple had been destroyed and Jerusalem was in ruins.

From that vantage point in history, Zechariah described Israel's political situation in the last generation before the coming of the Messiah.

"Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness." (Zechariah 12:2-4)

Jerusalem as a burdensome stone, a place that causes all the people around to tremble. Check.

All the nations that 'burden' themselves with Jerusalem to be cut into pieces. Hmmm. . . . US support for Israel is the stated cause of 9/11 and the subsequent war on terror. Check.

'All the people of the earth gathered against it.' Sadly, that now appears to be true. Check.

Zechariah predicted God would smite those who ride against Jerusalem with madness. Hmmmm. (again)

The Palestinian Authority has more or less global support for the creation of an openly terrorist state dedicated to Israel's destruction existing side by side with Israel.

Provided Israel surrenders Jerusalem, the Temple Mount and the rest of Judaism holiest places. Madness? Check again!

There are two conclusions one can draw. The first is that this is quite a coincidence. Simply amazing. What a great guess! If the coincidence theory leaves you flat, that leaves only one remaining conclusion.

Jesus is coming. And He is coming soon.

[Doug Fowler]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Zion Gene, good points about Israel's PM, he has clearly been like King Saul.

HSB, I had been wondering, being born in 1969, just what might have gone on in bygone days; I only think of terrorism as beginning int he 1970s really, or had thought of it that way, anyway. It is great to read some facts that the liberal news media just won't tell us. I may e-mail that whole thing to a few friends.

Re: Replacement theology, it's one of the things I tried most to avoid when choosing a seminary. I can't imagine how anyone can believe in it, especially since we, the Church are so secure in Christ. If Israel can be judged, how much more so His church? The logical end to that is an insult to the ever loving, ever merciful Creator who saved us.

I like to tell the kids I work with at church that Israel is grounded. It's a term they understand - no privileges, but still a part of the family, the child just can't go anywhere, and if it's severe enough can't watch TV, play outside, etc.. (Some families I know use "grounding" as a term for an y privilege loss - grounded from TV, etc.) But, the child never stops being loved, never ceases to be a child. In the same way, God just isn't giving them the privileges they had when they were being led in the wilderness, when Elijah was defeaating the prophets of Baal, etc..

But, one4 of these days Israel will get its privileges back.