Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I said that I would not burden this thread again with any more of my posts, and here I am breaking my own word a second time, for which I apologize.

Momentous statements of tremendous and fateful importance were made in Israel last week just before Passover. Two men who lead and represent Israel, were speaking to Israel about its fate, as it commemorated its original delivery from the slavery of Egypt nearly four thousand years ago, and were informing us too, about the way things really are, and will be!

The time leading up to Passover has been great for making prophecies and declaring great truths, in the history of Israel. The one that stands out in my mind, is where Caiphas the High Priest unwittingly predicted that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation of his time: he only thought of it as an expedient necessity to appease the Romans, for his main concern was to save the nation politically from the wrath of the powers-that-be. It sounds very much like Mr. Sharon today. Note below:

John 11: 49-51: “And one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation….” Ciaphas was declaring a great theological truth, although was not in the least aware of it

I have been thinking about statements made by both President Katsav and by Prime Minister Sharon right before Passover. I believe that God was informing us and Israel of some facts which may have been left out of the equations

Among other things, Ariel Sharon told his people that they have to be content with only a partial fulfillment of the dream of settling Eretz Yisroel—the Land of Israel—at this time, and he further blamed the default on the fact the Jews were too lax in returning to the land en masse, which would have consolidated the dream. On the other hand, Mr. Katsav declared that Israel has no mediator, nor a prophet at this time, who can declare with certainty, what the will of God is for the nation Israel. I have come to believe that these men uttered prophecies of the most profound sort.

Mr. Sharon may be blaming the Diaspora for the end-result of his weak leadership, but even if he is principally to blame, he is partially correct: indeed, not enough Jews are in Israel to totally possess the land. And what I fear is, that if God gave all Jews the opportunity to return home over the last generation, and they did not avail themselves of it, then I say that Israel, comparatively speaking, is at the point relative to possession of the land, where she was just after the spies of old returned with the fateful majority report. If my reasoning is correct, then we Lovers of Zion need not worry ourselves—the final redemption of Israel is at least one generation down the road.

And as to Mr. Katsav’s words: he has declared the underlying root cause of the tragedy of Jewish history, since the Second Temple fell two thousand years ago, when the Jews lost the medium of the temple sacrifices with the destruction of the Second Temple. Furthermore, with the upgrading of the God’s system of temporary blood sacrifice, to the true essence of the blood of Christ--and the rejection of that fulfillment during that fateful Passover of two thousand years--the Jews have since not had a mediator, and were estranged from their ultimate prophet.
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In my opinion, if God allows the disengagement so-called to go through this year, it will be a signal to me that, in annoyance, God will have abandoned Israel for some time to a hurtful fate of its own preparing, and that the last “wandering” generation has begun. Now I begin to understand the force of the words, which I have highlighted in the text below.

KJV Ezekiel 13:9-10 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace;”

I could never understand, how that, during the general period of restoring His people to the land, that God would deliberately keep some of them out of it! The next scripture speaks further to the subject. The term “the wilderness of the people” may now be seen in a modern light, and may soon be realized for the Jews of the Diaspora, who delayed returning to Israel for one day too long. They will have to contend with much more than sand in their shoes!

KJV Ezekiel 20:34-38 “And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.” Many of our friends will be thrown out of their "native" countries as happened in Spain beginning in 1492, and have not place to go!

This text seems to say that all unbelieving Jews left in the Diaspora will be eliminated in one way or the other.

My conclusions are these. If God does not raise His hand and deliver Gaza and Gush Katif at this time, it will cause a great loss of respect for the Jews by all and sundry, and I expect that a horrendous wave of Anti-Semitism and Jew-baiting will break out all over the world. Furthermore, God will see to it that only Jews who are observant will be able to break free from that worldwide persecution, and most of the others will die before they have a chance to get back home again. If Gaza and Gush Katif falls, then Jews all over the world will need much more than asbestos suit. Anti-Semitism will get going like a blowtorch

On the other hand, if God decides to work in grace to most of the unbelieving in the nation today, and honors the particular faith of the folks in Gush Katif and among the Settlers, He will perform a mighty delivery for them within the next three or four months, and the countdown to the Messiah will be speeded up.

Then will Israel have its Mediator and Prophet like unto Moses, and its wandering will finally come to an end

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZG: It is always rewarding to read your commentary do not apologize for sharing your thoughts...they are certainly no "burden"..rather a blessing to us!

A few observations. I also was struck by the accuracy of Sharon's comment about insufficient Jews. I won't repeat what I said above in post #575.

Regarding the "wilderness experience" the question arises when did it start? Upon the return of the spies to Kadesh Barnea and their report to the people, the nation refused to "possess its inheritance". They were terrified of fighting the "big people" even though God had already told them He intended to use the hornets to drive the enemy out before them. Lack of faith then resulted in 40 years of wilderness wanderings. (actually 38 from Kadesh Barnea since they already had put in 2 years to get that far).

As we turn to Israel today I suggest the equivalent of Kadesh Barnea is June 1967, not 2005. God gave the Land back to the Jews to possess..largely they have failed to do that, and have spent the last 38 years with no rest. ZG you mentioned a generation might have to pass...it already has passed since 1967! 38 years takes us to 2005 and the full 40 years takes us to 2007. I don't think we will be waiting for yet another generation span. the time for redemption has arrived!

God is about to act in a direct and dramatic way. Pardon me for saying it will be the Mother of all Shock and Awe campaigns seen thus far! Yet the focus of this thread (Ezekiel 36) deals with the mountains of Israel...I still cannot discern where and how Gaza fits into that. You will note in my earlier posts that I wondered out loud if the Gush Katif evacuation might somehow be "postponed" and be folded into the larger evacuation from the West Bank that looms ahead...the Saudi plan/Roadmap and the PA state implementation. On the other hand gaza evacuation may proceed ahead and things come to a real head in another 18 months. Either way it will be a very bumpy ride. The opponents of evacuation are just beginning to FIGHT. The government will have more to contend with then "sand in its shoes"

It is indeed awesome to watch some of the old themes (eg Caiaphas declaration at Passover) being reshaped and articulated in our time by the leaders of Israel. In the Hagadah that is read in Passover seder celebrations there is a long list of things God had done for the Jews in delivering them from Egypt. After each item the response of the gathering is "dagenu"...meaning "it would have been enough". In light of the machinations in Israel today perhaps a more appropriate saying would be "it SHOULD have been enough"!!!

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

The force of my argument for the beginning of the "Wilderness" generation, is the presence of a declaration--either in words or writing--of a state of being, by a leader, or leaders of Israel, who were appointed to represent the nation. Neither in 1967, nor at any time time since 1948 before Mr. Sharon came along, did any leader of Israel make a statement similar to what he made last week. He virtually said, "we are not able." And the Kenesset has seconded the motion of Mr. Sharon. Compare Numbers 13, 30 through 31:

"And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, "Let us go up
at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we."

And the nation seconded the statement of the majority

In any event, I am convinced that if God stands aside and permits the retreat in Gaza, Gush Katif, and Judaea and Samaria to go forward this summer, then indeed, it will be a signal that it will be quite a long time down a miserable road, before the fighting Angel Of The Lord's Hosts, goes before Israel again, as He did for Joshua

PS
The other point which I need to reemphasize--and which did not register on my mind previous to Mr. Sharon's declaration--is the sense of the texts in my previous post, which says that there will be a large group of Jews in the Diaspora, who God Himself will not allow to return to Israel. And I now see why He would take that position toward them, considering the blame which many of them share for non-possession--which in many cases is the result of unbelief in His promises.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I am wondering when in the history of the world, as per Ezekiel 20:38, did God Himself prevent large numbers of Jews from returning to Israel. I have a sneaking suspicion that that period of time is just up ahead. And my two previous posts here tell why I think it will be so

[agrace]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I'm glad you both returned to the thread, for your additional thoughts are excellent ones. I read this entire thread over a period of almost 2 weeks (it took that long!) and signed up to post as a result.

ZG, wonderful observations regarding the words of Sharon, and that whole post, in fact, drawing the parallels from Caiaphus and Numbers. That kind of thing is what has made this thread so provocative and interesting to follow. You went on to say in your next that

Neither in 1967, nor at any time time since 1948 before Mr. Sharon came along, did any leader of Israel make a statement similar to what he made last week. He virtually said, "we are not able."

I agree with HSB about 1967, and I would respectfully submit that in 1967, Moshe Dayan DID in effect make such a statement when he returned control of the Temple Mount to the Arabs. His actions (and, as noted below, his words) said "We're not able." God gave Isreal the victory in a most miraculous way, and Israel didn't have faith in Him.

On Arutz-7's website they have on permanent display a commentary over audio from the liberation of the western wall. It is one of the most moving things I've ever heard and well worth a listen - soldiers reaching the wall, weeping openly, rabbis speaking, blowing the shofar, spontaneous singing of Hatikvah.

I often wonder how those soldiers and rabbis felt when Moshe Dayan nullified it that same day, and then later officially with the Arabs.

By his own words, from this link, http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=4154, concerning discussion with the Muslim leaders on the Temple Mount -

"I said that Israeli troops would be removed from the site and
stationed outside the compound. The Israeli authorities were
responsible for overall security, but we would not interfere in the
private affairs of the Moslems responsible for their own sanctuaries.
These were two Moslem places of worship, and they had the right to
operate them themselves. My hosts no doubt knew that on the day we
had captured this site, I had given orders that the Israeli flag be
removed from the Mosque of the Dome, where it had been hoisted. We
had no intention of controlling Moslem holy places or of interfering
in their religious life. The one thing we would introduce was freedom
of Jewish access to the compound of Haram esh-Sharif without
limitation or payment. This compound, as my hosts well knew, was our
Temple Mount. Here stood our Temple during ancient times, and it
would be inconceivable for Jews not to be able freely to visit this
holy place now that Jerusalem was under our rule. "

And we all know how that agreement has turned out - badly, just as any compromise with pagan nations has in Israel's history. Jews, more often than not, have been denied access to that compound ever since in the name of security (translation: mollifying the Muslims), they can never pray on the mount, bring any religious materials, etc, and are made to feel completely cut off from the Temple Mount itself. Look what erupted when Sharon had the audacity to set foot on that very compound in September 2000.

The Israeli commander had said "The Temple Mount is in our hands!" He was their Caleb. Several days later, Moshe Dayan gave it back, and they've been wandering in the wilderness ever since.

[agrace]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

By the way, here's the link to that audio and commentary re capture of the Temple Mount, if anyone is interested - http://msmedia.a7.org:81/arutz7/show...ovias-6day.wma

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

These are good questions ZionGene. I wonder if the decision made by Moshe Dayan in 1967 to give the Waif control of Temple Mount does not come close to a "declaration of unwillingness to possess" (DUP) Indeed the whole nation was "duped".

If you are right ZG and the current decision to abandon Covenant Land marks the start not the end of the "wilderness experience" what do you see happening in the months ahead? Surely the whole mess will not simply fester as it is for another 40 years...so does that mean that the withdrawal in fact continues and the Mountains of Israel become the Mountains of Palestine (MOP) until some distant future date. Sorry but I do not see that scenario working out. If the Jews are unwilling/unable to defend their Land, I believe God Himself will directly enter the equation and work redemption "by His own arm" and for "His own name sake". In the process the government of Israel will be shunted aside, perhaps in favor of the Sanhedrin.

I have thought that when God strikes the Land and the nonJews that survive flee the West Bank, that there will then follow a brief "window of opportunity" for Jews outside the Land to return there. I believe they will do so in record numbers, particularly from America. That will be a signal that judgment is about to fall. We will see how these things play out shortly.

My wife and I are leaving for Israel tomorrow night. We will miss the opportunity to say hello to Mr. Putin..perhaps our planes will pass in the sky. Not sure ZG when I can post again after tomorrow but will share again your warmth and regard for the Jewish people when we have occasion to do so, particularly in the settlement areas we visit.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

AGrace: so happy to have you join us!! We were both typing up a similar response about Moshe Dayan and 1967 at the same time. Thanks for the links to history...very relevant to the discussion. I truly hope you will continue to post on this as well as other topics on WEDG forum.

PS I just listened to the archive tape on the liberation of Jerusalem in 1967. What a wonderful resource. I hope everyone takes the time to listen to this dramatic recording!!

[agrace]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Thank you, HSB, and have a wonderful trip to Israel.

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I have examined carefully the words which Moshe Dayan uttered relative to the mosques and the Temple Mount. It appears to me that he only gave control of the two religious sites to the Moslems. The Rabbi made his comment of "not leaving" concerning the over-all control of the whole compound--including the Wailing Wal--and that declaration holds true to today. The government of Israel will tell you that they only bend the rule in favor of the Arabs in the name of tranquility. The sovreignty there still belongs to Israel.

And as far as what Moshe Dayan said, he never went nearly as far as what the contents of Mr. Sharon's words were, when he gave an interview with the Jerusalem Post last week. Here is what The Jerusalem Newswire editorial staff published on April 21, 2005:

"In a pre-Passover interview Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told The Jerusalem Post that present realities meant part of the Zionist dream of resettling the land God deeded to the Jewish people would have to be forfeited."

When Moshe spoke, he was in no way referring to how far Israel would go in possessing Judaea and Samaria and the rest of the land of Israel. He was not addressing that issue

[agrace]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I disagree - Moshe Dayan did something huge, something incredibly symbolic and demoralizing for all of Israel - he immediately and unilaterally returned control of Israel's holiest site, a place that had been out of their control for almost 2000 years, back into the hands of the enemy who had been openly seeking her destruction for decades. He also says further in that book excerpt -

"I was convinced that precisely because control was now in our hands
it was up to us to show broad tolerance, so rare an attitude among
the regimes of the preceding decades and centuries. We should
certainly respect the Temple Mount as an historic site of our ancient
past, but we should not disturb the Arabs who were using it for what
it was now-a place of Moslem worship."

"Not disturbing the Arabs" became a total surrender, sovereignty or no. As a liberal Jew, Dayan had no regard for the God of his fathers (imo, he pretty much spit in God's eye) and as a result, he set the tone for what secular Israel still does to this day (and often did in biblical history, for that matter) - which is, work against God's commands and His covenants.

About sovereignty...the article also states

"The matter [of prayer on the mount] came up for
consideration by the government. Although, understandably, no
minister wished to take a formal position stating baldly that Jews
were forbidden to pray on the Temple Mount, it was decided
to "maintain the current policy," which in fact banned them from
doing so. It was evident that if we did not prevent Jews from praying
in what was now a mosque compound, matters would get out of hand and
lead to a religious clash."

Certainly Israel has sovereignty, but in word only. What good is sovereignty without the wherewithall to back it up? The Israeli govt ministers in 67 were sadly in agreement - don't allow Jews to pray on the Temple Mount because of potential backlash from those we claim to have sovereignty over. It's maddening, and govts since then have done the same with regard to more than just the Temple Mount.

To me, Sharon's words are highly significant and a huge blow to God-fearing Jews, and he might be the first to actually state it as such, but plenty of his predecessors held the same opinion - Rabin, Peres and Barak come to mind.

What Dayan did was a poignant example of a general attitude that has been largely maintained ever since. Secular Israel has continually been willing (and when they are not, they are pressured to that end) to capitulate and compromise for the sake of peace, a peace which never comes and never will, as long as they capitulate and compromise.

To use your Numbers reference, Caleb and Joshua came back with confidence that with God's help, they could claim the land. The others with them disagreed, and the people fell to the side of the doubters. Just like today - a very few against many. We could call it the grasshopper attitude.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Well put AGrace!! I am totally in agreement with you on the impact of Dayan's decision in June 1967. I love your reference to the "grasshopper effect"

The original divine plan for Canaan was to have hornets drive the inhabitants out. Have you ever been stung by a hornet? I have, repeatedly, when I accidentally disturbed one of their nests. They are absolutely ferocious little critters. No giant would stand up to them for long. The Israelites only had to walk in and take possession of the Land. They didn't have any swords...they didn't need any swords!! Let me follow "God's hornets" any day versus the grasshoppers!

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

In this case, I guess I put stress on actual words--and I think the scriptures do too. The effect of one's actions is another issue. The actual words! The words! Things are clinched and actualized before God through specific words spoken by the mouth, and not by the intent of actions otherwise. That is how we are bound for life in marriage, in spite of what our actions later on may be. That is, also, according to Romans 10:9, the basis of our getting saved--"if thou shall confess with thy mouth." Mr. Sharon is the first leader to declare a new status in as much words. Moshe's words might have cuused a psychological retreat, but he did not say that the people should retreat from the land of Israel

There is the case of Isaac blessing Jacob as the result of a trick. Ultimately, it was not what Isaac wished in his heart, but what he actually said. Then too, that was the situation with God when he established the covenant between Him and Israel. He had the people assembled and say with their mouths, "All that the Lord hath spoken unto us we will do." Even among nations, a state of war only exists legally, after a leader says so. Israel only became a nation in 1948 when Mr. BenGurion said so. Not even a written statement would have had the same legal force

In the case of Israeli leaders, actions do not speak louder than words, as the saying goes. What the actions of Israeli leaders caused to happen or be assumed, is profuondly different from the impact of a verbal declaration in the eyes of God. I heard someone say that the Jewish Sanhedrin will be required to state in words , its acceptance of Jesus as Messiah in the future--which certainly stands to reason

In this case, the official declaration in words was made by Mr. Sharon. What the previous waffling acts were, did not clinch the arrangement--not before God!

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I think that I have found occasions in the possession of Canaan under Joshua, which are analagous to what happened in Israel since 1948, and specifically as it relates to the question of whether or not Moshe Dayan initiated a retreat for Israel by giving the Moslems control of the mosques on the temple Mount.

Right after Joshua won the battles of Jericho and of Ai, his "soft" heart inclined him to enter into a covenant with a nearby Canaanite tribe, which God told him not to do generally. He was careless in following principles which would lead to happy possession of the land, fully as much as Mr. Dayan did in our time

Joshua might have been no more than six months or so in the land, when the Gibeonites approached him sueing for peace. He acquiesced and took pity on them because of their seemingly desolate condition. What Joshua did not know, was that he was tricked into a covenant with a group, which was to be a burden to Israel for hundreds of years. I look at what Moshe Dayan did out of that same kind of misplaced pity, and see the analogy with what Joshua did for the Gibeonites I note that this action of Joshua, as unwise as it was, was not considered by God to be a retreat on Israel's part, from the possession of the land which He gave to Israel.

There is another comparison which comes to mind.

The People entered the land under Joshua's leadership at approximately the middle of the sixteenth century BC, yet it was over three hundred years later that David possesed the site to build the temple. The condition of the temple site, was, and is not an indicator of whether or not Israel is possessing the land.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

ZionGene: What is your take on the following question I asked earlier:
"If you are right ZG and the current decision to abandon Covenant Land marks the start not the end of the "wilderness experience" what do you see happening in the months ahead? Surely the whole mess will not simply fester as it is for another 40 years...so does that mean that the withdrawal in fact continues and the Mountains of Israel become the Mountains of Palestine (MOP) until some distant future date."