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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    HSB -

    There is much too much news for me to be able to put together a good post, today. But I do have a couple of questions.

    When do you leave for Israel, how long will you be gone, and will you have internet connectivity while there?

    I for one would be very interested in getting a real-time commentary from the scene. I want to be praying for you, too. Particularly for your safety, since you seem to be prone to walking into dangerous places w/ your eyes wide open

    Later -

    HSB -

    The equation seems to have more variables each day. For instance, the Debka article at http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1015 postulates that Jordan's King Abdullah may be lining up to be instrumental in the disengagement, especially if he could keep the West Bank out of palestineian hands - particularly Hamas. There is much more here than meets the eye.

    I'm beginning to wonder if ZionGene may not have had a great deal of wisdom when he seemed to muse that we may be very much farther away from the end times than we are trying to convince ourselves we are....

    ZionGene, are you out there? Comments?
    Last edited by PlumBob; 04-18-2005, 10:18 PM.

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    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Dear PlumBob: I expect to be in Israel from April 30th through May 23rd, God willing. I will be attending a ceremony at Yad Vashem on May 5th as part of Holocaust memorial. Fortunately my wife and I will have a car and some considerable flexibility re travel before the group of 27 arrives on May 12 (includes Don the Wee Baptist ) we will be touring around the country with the last 3 days spent visiting West Bank communities (Hebron, Etzion, BetEl, Shiloh, Ariel etc) I hope that we will have internet access (the country is quite progressive!!!) and can keep in contact with you. This trip will be a wonderful opportunity to gauge the mood of folks over there and the reality they face in various locations. I suspect the people in the settlements in samaria, judea are looking down the pike and realize that they too will be abandoned by the government. God Himself will need to get involved directly.

      I have to comment on your statement "we may be very much farther away from the end times than we are trying to convince ourselves we are...." I have to say in all seriousness I am not trying to convince myself or anyone else of the timing of the "end of days". I am sharing possibilities and the news as it evolves around us. I do believe there is a very good chance however that we are in fact very much CLOSER to the end times than widely believed, with the developments in Israel occuring front and center! Consider the consequences of the mounting pressure on Israel to get out of the Land God gave them through the ancient covenants. perhaps the whole mess will roll neatly along without major difficulty OR perhaps we will be in the midst of a whole series of natural and man made disasters OF OUR OWN MAKING! Time will tell and soon at that! Blessings on you brother, keep studying the Word! PS Thanks for your prayers! "Safety is of the Lord" amen
      Last edited by HSB; 04-19-2005, 07:11 AM.

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        A brief update from Debka: hope these guys are involved in the anti missile joint exercises with their Stryker Armored cars:

        DEBKAfile’s military sources report: Long convoy of dozens of unmarked American military including Stryker light armored infantry carriers loaded with US troops sighted on Israel’s Highway 40 heading out of Lod in central Israel to the south.

        Troops sitting in open turrets. DEBKAfile adds: In past two weeks, US and Israeli special units holding joint training exercises in Israel’s southern Negev

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        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          PlumBob: I wanted to comment on the Debka article about Jordan that you referenced above. It seems to me that Jordanian involvement makes a lot of sense. The Palestinians do not seem to have many if any institutions of government or state that are sufficiently mature to run a country on their own. The prospect of an independent Palestine that devolves into total anarchy in a matter of days is quite unsettling. It would not surprise me if Plan B is kept ready to implement. In any case we would still have the Mountains of Israel becoming something else...Mountains of West Jordan etc. It still won't work in the eyes of God IMHO, although it makes a whole lot more sense politically. The forced evacuation of the West Bank will bring on the judgment of God, sooner or later. If George Bush is involved, if this thing is part of his "legacy", then he has a limited time to act. The clock is already running on his last 4 year term.

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          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Article today in JPost refers to Sharon "trying to save as much as (he) can".

            "Had more Diaspora Jews chosen to make their homes here, Sharon said, it is possible that his overall strategy might have been different, "but we have to look at the facts as they are." And in the reality that he inherited as prime minister, he said, the unfortunate truth was that only "part of the settlement dream" could realistically be achieved."

            In a discussion a few years ago with an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem I mentioned that the "facts on the ground" would have been different if a huge number of Jews had returned to the land from diaspora and resettled the West Bank. He told me most Jews were still living in "Babylon" and pointed west to America. These days I don't agree a lot with what Sharon is doing but his quote above makes a lot of sense!!

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            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              think maybe the rapture will happen when this thread gets to 665 posts?

              go fast/ go slow...........
              seems to me that both republican and democratic leaders are heading twords the same endgame. each election merely chooses the speed with which we get to the new world order.

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              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Lewis: if we make it to 666 posts we are in BIG trouble! I agree with your comment about fast or slow..the river seems to only flow in one direction, and I think I hear a BIG roar around the bend up ahead...

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                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  (I SIMPLY HAD TO BRING THIS ARTICLE AND ITS HIGHLIGHTS TO EVERYONE WHO IS CONCERNED WITH THE STATE OF ISRAEL TODAY. It is an article from today's Jerusalem Post, and its does not insist on its copyright. It has to do with the comments of President Katsav to the Jerusalem Post today. I highlight some sections of it. It could cause you to cry. Notice where he says that Israel has no mediator)


                  Katsav to Post: Government owes settlers an apology

                  HERB KEINON and GREER FAY CASHMAN, THE JERUSALEM POST Apr. 21, 2005


                  A formal apology in the name of successive governments should be issued to Gush Katif settlers who moved there at the state's behest and are now facing evacuation, President Moshe Katsav has told The Jerusalem Post.

                  "I think successive governments of Israel have to ask forgiveness from the settlers for sending them there," he said. "They didn't go there on their own, but in accordance with government decisions. Now that the government is asking for their evacuation, I think the government should go ask their forgiveness."

                  Katsav, in a holiday interview with the Post<, also took issue with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's recent characterization of the charged atmosphere in the country as one that "looks like the eve of the civil war."

                  "I don't think there is danger of a civil war," he said. At the same time, he said he was worried about the possibility of violence, refusal by soldiers to obey orders and the possibility of an attack on the prime minister. He stressed that he had no concrete information about plans to harm Sharon.

                  Katsav called on disengagement opponents to leave religion and Halacha out of the equation and on rabbis not to make withdrawal a religious issue. Bringing God into the argument about whether Israel should withdraw from the Gaza Strip effectively brings any discussion on the matter to an end, he said.

                  "No one among us knows – on this issue – what God wants. I can turn it around, and say maybe it is God's will to evacuate Gush Katif," Katsav said, adding that the lack of success the plan's opponents have had in stopping the plan – despite more than a year's efforts – may be an indication that God wants Israel to leave the area.

                  "We have no prophet, or voice from heaven, or anyone connecting us directly to God and mediating between us," he said. "It is preferable, therefore, that the argument take place in the realm of security and diplomatic issues."

                  "The unity of Israel is also a [halachic] value," Katsav said. "For unity it is permissible, I think, to evacuate Gush Katif."

                  He also dismissed the argument that settling Gush Katif is part of a religious imperative to settle the Land of Israel. "The prophets never got into the argument of demarking the borders of the Land of Israel, they left that to the kings to decide," he said. Katsav pointed out that King Solomon decided to give Hiram, the king of Tyre, 20 cities in the Galilee.

                  Katsav, who said he was in favor of postponing the pullout until after Tisha Be'av, said he thought the police should carry out the evacuation, and that the IDF should be called on as a last resort.

                  "If they [the police] don't have enough manpower, then they will need to be reinforced. But the operation should be a police one. I would not want to see soldiers evacuating citizens in accordance with a government and Knesset decision. This is also true of riots inside the Green Line."

                  Although the IDF may need to be called in to help the police, its primarily role, Katsav said, should be to protect the settlers against the possibility of Palestinian attacks.


                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Originally posted by ZionGene
                    (I SIMPLY HAD TO BRING THIS ARTICLE AND ITS HIGHLIGHTS TO EVERYONE WHO IS CONCERNED WITH THE STATE OF ISRAEL TODAY

                    "No one among us knows – on this issue – what God wants. . .

                    "We have no prophet, or voice from heaven, or anyone connecting us directly to God and mediating between us,"
                    ZionGene! What a pleasure to see you back! How sad that you had to bring this particular piece of news.

                    I am particularly struck by one thing the Snoopy asked several pages ago, concerning ". . . how can the Jews not See, and Understand . . ." Snoopy, as you clearly see here, in real time, the secular leadership in Israel isn't connected to God.

                    The situation remains essentially the same, I believe. I noted this morning that the Sharon government may very well push the relocations out by 6 weeks or so. HSB, although you still believe this is an irrevocable done-deal, I'm still not sure we know exactly what the complexion may be. I smiled at one of your last posts - we did indeed mention, and not too obliquesly, that it's an oxymoron that the palestineans want their own country, when they don't have the essential attributes of nation-ness. No central bank, no central command and control, no real organized output of goods and services, nobody beating on their doors to buy their products, no organized way to interact with other nations, etc. etc. ad infinitum. What a world!

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                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      Dear PlumBob

                      At this two-thousandth-odd celebration by the Jews of Passover time, after the only Mediator between God and Man had showed up among them, Israel through its President, unwittingly admits that the nation still has no mediator, and no prophet from God. Katsav was preaching although he was not aware of it. And Israel has paid a bloody price, and will yet pay some more, because of that deficit

                      When Israel sinned in making the Golden Calf, if it were not for the fact that the people did have a mediator in the person of Moses, God would have destroyed the whole nation. And the reason why the Jews have been exposed to so much evil at the hands of Satan and evil men, is because of that very thing: they did not implore God to protect them in the name of the only God-Man go-between. They did not suffer because they were His suffering servant! Their experience only illustrates what will happen to every individual eternally, who will have no mediator between him, or her, and the holy God. But of course, one can see how that when the Messiah arises to deliver Israel, it will only be because He dicides to do so out of a superabundance of grace.

                      As to the postponement of the pullout until the time of mourning: I still think that God will do something quite drastic to honor the faith of the Settlers which they have in Him

                      A text from Job 9:30-33 comes to my mind at this point: Daysman is the nearest word to "mediator" in the Old Teatament
                      
                      "If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both."

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                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Zion Gene and PlumBob: I also am saddened that it is news like that posted by ZG that keeps this thread going Katsav is obviously not a devout Orthodox Jew. We should ask some of them for a reaction to what he said! I think they would say the same things that are being said here. I don't think the president has read Amos 9 or Ezekiel 36 recently.

                        I had an email from an individual who indicated that he/she is halfway through reading all the posts on this thread and finds the whole topic and discussion very interesting!! A question was posed about the unwalled cities with no gate nor bar, as well as dwelling "securely" (although the same word can mean "carelessly"). I mentioned that I thought two things- firstly that all cities are now unwalled anyway (since advent of rifled cannon) but more importantly I thought, according to my little scenario, that the phrase implied a deal with no threats..that is why I thought Gog might even be invited in to assist with the implementation of the non-state, and hence no defences are mounted against his arrival. Just thought I would tack on this half-shekel's worth. Shalom. PS I should not demean the lowly half-shekel. In ancient times it bought you admission into the Temple courts..no small thing that. If Gershom ever gets his cornerstone planted on top of temple Mount they might just start charging that little half-shekel again.

                        To PlumBob: re your comment "I'm still not sure we know exactly what the complexion may be" all I can say is "amen brother, none of us know". Whether Gaza evacuation even goes ahead is up in the air in my mind. Would not surprise me if the thing still got postponed and folded into a larger settlement. Sharon thinks he can save the big blocks of residents from the EU and US pressure. Doubt it!!
                        Last edited by HSB; 04-22-2005, 02:23 PM.

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                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Originally posted by HSB
                          Would not surprise me if the thing still got postponed and folded into a larger settlement. Sharon thinks he can save the big blocks of residents from the EU and US pressure. Doubt it!!
                          Hello HSB -
                          I think I'll post a couple of observations today - I had really planned on keeping one of them in my hat for another few days, but the appearance of the second just gives me an opportunity to be more verbose than I should

                          First, I'll cite http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...&w=RTR&coview= quoted in part
                          "No" vote on EU treaty could bring chaos

                          AMSTERDAM, April 22 (Reuters) - A rejection of the EU constitution could bring economic chaos, undermine Europe's negotiating power in global free trade talks and usher in a long period of protectionism, the bloc's trade chief said on Friday.

                          "I'm not saying that Europe would fall apart. At best Europe would stagnate. At worse we would face some sort of chaos," Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson said in the Netherlands, which is due to hold a referendum on the treaty on June 1.

                          "A 'No' vote means Europe turning in on itself, examining its navel again," he said. "It would mean people in the rest of the world taking Europe less seriously and ... from a trade point of view that is the very last thing that Europe needs."
                          I see the implication here being a (possible) loss of integrity of the EU bloc, which might give the (former) Soviet bloc the feeling of a bit more "muscle" in the Euro/Asian area. I won't even begin to go into the idea of AC coming from a revived Roman empire, etc., but this does bring an interesting twist to the whole conversation.

                          Secondly, I note the following, again quoted in part, from http://www.jnewswire.com./library/ar...?articleid=494
                          Israel expects full-scale Mideast war in 2006

                          JERUSALEM - Israel has reportedly expressed its belief to Washington that Iran and several of its Arab allies are preparing for a full-scale war against the Jewish state, possibly following the expected US withdrawal from Iraq in 2006.

                          Unnamed US officials told Middle East Newsline this week that according to Israeli assessments, the departure of most American forces from the region would lead to increased tensions and provide an atmosphere ripe for an escalation of violence.
                          I think these two trends intertwine very nicely 1) EU weakens itself by forcing the whole process back a giant step - the EU politicos would have to do some huge hugging and kissing to get the process spun back up to where it would be on September 1, if everybody just turned in a 95% Yes vote. 2) While EU is wailing and gnashing its teeth, a Russian/Arab confederacy decides to just sieze the opportunity (Carpe Diem) and go ahead and (try to) take Israel out.

                          HSB, in such a scenario, your Mountains theory could be altered just a bit, by taking on a somewhat more traditionalist twist, but could certainly remain essentially intact. Make any number of assumptions about WHO (not to be confused with the World Health Organization) would want to take over the Mountains, and whether that might be part of a Peace Deal between which two or three parties (or more?), but the process just might be nearly the same.

                          This will probably be post 581 in the thread. That gives us 85 more posts, until 666. Let's see, that's something like eleven (11) posts a month - one every 3 days - to stretch this out untill '06. Nahhh, never happen. Then on the other hand, maybe if we could pump up the action, we could get home sooner....

                          I'm going to be all ears to hear what Hal Lindsey has to say next week

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                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            The two-plus-two-equals-four sad sad fact-of-the-matter is, that Katsav touched on a principle, which even we well-wishers of Israel try to avoid-- and wish it was'nt so. There are some stark issues here!

                            The mercy seat of the slab of gold was dangerous to approach by a human being, unless it was sprinkled with blood, and thereby had shed blood between the symbol of the holiness of God, and the imperfect human being. That arrangement pictured the throne of God in heaven, and if Israel--or anybody else for that matter--approaches God without the blood of the Son Of God between them and God's righteousness, their concerns hardly gets prompt attention by the Almighty. And in the meantime, the Destroyer has a field day with that individual, or nation, or people. Even as a Christian, I know what it is like, when God leaves even the disobedient believer to the elements, because of disobedience, and allows Satan to process him or her for some time, for trampling wilfully on the blood that bought him.

                            Because the Jewish nation today has no mediator (in a way that goes far beyond what Mr. Katsav meant), all the prayers of all the Orthodox rabbis may not make much difference, given that fact that Israel's own leaders fell for bribes to vote for so-called disengagement. That fact may be the main one, which is being put forth as evidence by Satan in this case before God's court and the angelic hosts, considering that no mediator is highighting mercy. As a result, God may just say, "Okay you guys, you asked for it: be disengaged from the land, and from me too." It therefore seems to me, that unless a strong plea is made to God through the Only Mediator and Advocate Jesus Christ, by those who have contact with Him, then Israel may be in for a bloody road ahead indeed, which will be much worse than when the bible said that "their carcasses fell in the wilderness."

                            If Israel is to avail herself of our Mediator's services, then many believers In Christ will have to drop to their knees, and stay there for long periods of time on her behalf, and begin to do so right away.


                            (As I was musing over the no-mediator jeopardy in which Israel finds itself today (according to Israeli President Katsav), my mind began to scan its memory for the equivalent term for "mediator" which is not found in the Old Testament--at least not in the KJV. And suddenly it came to me: the word "daysman"--which I probably have not heard used, since a hatchet was declared to be a hammer--suddenly popped up in my mind. Here is what it says in Job 9:27-33, where Job speaks to the problem which he had, in trying to access a holy God. Job said:

                            "If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and
                            comfort myself: I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent. If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain? If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both."

                            Why is it that most of people still neglect addressing their need for a mediator, which was obvious to Job perhaps four millenia ago? When will the absolutely necessary mediator role of Christ be fully appreciated: when it is too late?)
                            Last edited by ZionGene; 04-22-2005, 06:51 PM.

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                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Originally posted by ZionGene
                              If Israel is to avail herself of our Mediator's services, then many believers In Christ will have to drop to their knees, and stay there for long periods of time on her behalf, and begin to do so right away.
                              You DO have a way w/ words, ZionGene. Again, for the third, or fourth time, I am sure that you and I agree to plead w/ everyone on this Board to fervently pray for God's intervention in this matter.

                              Let us pray that God will be merciful to His People, if only for the sake of the precious few orthodox jews who are relying on His protection.
                              Last edited by PlumBob; 04-22-2005, 04:32 PM.

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                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                I'll sleep better tonight knowing oil supply from Sheba/Dedan is secure and in "good hands"
                                Last edited by HSB; 04-27-2005, 09:47 AM.

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