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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Snoopy, the scriptures were written to give us hope at any and all times, but certainly much of it was not understood at all times. On the Day of Pentecost, for example, just the small amount of what was revealed to Peter about the Last Days was enough to fire him up with certainty. Then there is Matthew 24 . Jesus could have been more explicit if He chose to. And he said in another place, in other words, to His disciples, “You cannot comprehend all of what is going on and being said now, but you will hereafter. And after the coming of the Spirit, Christ through Paul spoke of subjects, which Jesus never touched upon during His earthly ministry, and that includes many prophetic maters

    Yes, there is a possibility that we are “reading into things,” as you describe it! But remember that Paul did the same thing, and his critics sneer and say that he fully expected the Rapture to occur in his day, which is what he did!. But Paul did not append and say to that belief, “This I say unto you by the word of the Lord,”‘ He, like all the rest of us believers in Christ, saw certain things unclearly, “...as through a glass darkly.. .,” except when he added, “By the word of the Lord.”

    It is human–we are not gods--to expect believers to be far off the mark, as it relates to prophetic–-and other matters. Yet we all necessarily affirm that “Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God The Father,” and the salvation of our souls.

    But Snoopy, there is much evidence in the New Testament, that it is good for Believers In Christ to be intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually stimulated by biblical prophetic matters, in God’s word, in every age. After all, some believers consume themselves with what will “fall,” in the lotteries; how is the Stock Market doing; and what color tie the President wore at his last social outing..

    I might add one subjective note of mine right here. I believe that the details of the Last Days will only become perfectly clear right after the Rapture Of The Church. Believers in Christ will have ironclad insight into prophetic matters, dates and personalties, and time. Until then, I cringe whenever I hear a believer even hint, about who alive might be the Antichrist etc.

    H

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    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Originally posted by ZionGene
      ...there is much evidence in the New Testament, that it is good for Believers In Christ to be intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually stimulated by biblical prophetic matters, in God’s word, in every age. After all, some believers consume themselves with what will “fall,” in the lotteries; how is the Stock Market doing; and what color tie the President wore at his last social outing..
      ZG, you are so correct in your statement above. I am just recently coming to the conclusion that unless a believer is willing to study and learn the prophetic scriptures, there is a much higher probabilitity (perhaps even 100%??) that they will be deceived as Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 -

      "For false christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible (and it is), even the elect."

      But Mark 13:23 also adds - "But take heed; SEE, I HAVE TOLD YOU ALL THINGS BEFOREHAND"!!!!

      What he is saying is that only by knowing the truth of the prophetic Word will you avoid being deceived.

      This is what bothers me so much about the Purpose Drivel stuff that is sweeping the world. It closes the eyes of believers to the future of the world and places them squarely on the here and now, and most particularly on SELF. The enemy of our souls is diluting the Gospel to such a degree that those who think themselves believers now have no idea that there is any prophetic scripture in the Bible to know about let alone learn what it says about what's coming.

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Hello Everyone....

        I just can't keep this pent-up any longer. I'm sorry, HSB, somehow a vision of the Four Crane-Riders of the Apocalypse just doesn't evoke the same emotion as ---- LOL

        I guess I'm going to have to retire from the salt mines if I intend to try to keep up w/ you folks. 24 hours and I'm 3 pages behind! I haven't been to any of my news sites tonite, so I'm flying blind here.

        ZionGene, I think we should call it the Daniel-Snoopy Axiom, which says "It will make sense when we see it."

        With that in hand, ZionGene,
        Originally posted by ZionGene
        To me, the truth that both of these statements convey, is that as we come closer to the unfolding of biblical prophetic predictions, that nearly all of the folks in Christ (those made wise through Him alone, after being born again) will agree on the general outlines of such an event as the Gog invasion,-- and many others beside. The fact that there is not this concensus now, tells me that we are not near to the Gog invasion at this time
        Do you really not see the building of some kind of shared agreement?

        I would suggest that the truth of the Daniel-Snoopy Axiom is self-contained. The D-S Axiom does not say, however, "It will not make sense until we see it." The truth of the D-S Axiom is just a little farther down the time line, that's all.

        I envision this as a giant 25,000 piece jigsaw puzzle. Each of us likely has a few pieces in our hands. I, for one, feel deaf, dumb, and blind in here w/ you guys. I am, by training and by nature, an observer of (contemporary) human nature - that's what allows me to function in my job. I am not a scholar of prophesy or even the Bible - but it certainly seems I'm learning a lot! I walk around looking for appropriate places into wihch I can try to fit my little pieces of the puzzle. Most of the folks in this board in general, and this thread in particular, are much more adept at finding the right spots!

        But the very obvious (to me) conclusion is that 1) the pieces are fitting into place faster than they were last year. 2) Although the total picture is still not completely clear, we have a better sense of it now than we did last year. The operative axiom today is not "it will make sense when we see it", but that what we are seeing (now) is making more and more sense - I believe it was you, perhaps, who said, probably 30 pages ago now, that we are seeing prophesy fulfilled, right before our very eyes.

        You also said, in your last post,
        I believe that the details of the Last Days will only become perfectly clear right after the Rapture Of The Church.
        The way I see this thing, we may not have a unanimous consensus about the details, but we sure do have a nearly unanimous agreement that this picture puzzle has a Son in the sky, coming to redeem a deteriorating Earth. We have nearly unanimous agreement that the signs we see in the headlines nearly every day are both ominous and foretold. This thread now has 466 Posts, and 11,628 Views. Somebody(s) are vitally interested in the contents! We may not be in total agreement about the details, but we sure are all seeing the same picture come into focus. In the common parlance, we see "A very wide and deep ownership of this concern." And that, in the common parlance, IS "consensus".
        Last edited by PlumBob; 03-25-2005, 12:21 AM.

        Comment


        • Horses chariots riders and stuff

          It has been advanced by some that the ancient prophets were trying to describe modern weapons in language a person living before the 20th century would understand....... thus he/they talked about horses chariots etc......

          As to the Gog/magog war, it is my opinion that the AC makes a peace with everyone THEN the Gog/magog war is the Seccond seal of revelation......
          so with a pre trib rapture, we wont be around to see the peace really established........ satan is causeing the present terror and satan will be the one to bring a false peace

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          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Lewishb: you may be perfectly correct (in fact I hope you are) However we need to be open to other options (I'm sure you would agree). If I am right the Gog/Magog "war" will demonstrate to the Jews that the God of Israel is alive and active. However they still will not recognize their Messiah without even more pressure than they are going through at present. I forsee the Gog thing happening in the next year or two followed by major chaos in the political and economic world. The "Man" would probably arises out of Europe in control of their system (first he uproots 3 horns- would not surprise me at all if that meant that France, Germany and Britain lose their independent sovreignty) or perhaps as some have said the whole thing centers around the 10 Club of Rome divisions of the world. At any rate we now have a 10 nation system behind EU (that is the WEU) and a man about to become the High Commissioner of Foreign Policy, oh and he will be Secretary General of this WEU by January 1, 2007 when the 7 year new budget cycle kicks in the enforcement of the ENP (Europe Neighbourhood Policy) which Israel was the FIRST nation to sign on to. The pressure on Israel will be ECONOMIC blackmail as much as any military pressure. If this man (or his replacement) confirms a 7 year Economic deal with Israel which is broken after 3.5 years, when the budget cycle is reviewed in 2010, would that catch us by surprise. Initially the man will be hailed as a Master, perhaps even as Messiah (do not discount the impact of books like DaVinci Code to set people up for a complete dillusion...wouldn't even surprise me if he looked EXACTLY like the picture of jesus that we all have in our Bibles (another FRAUD!!)

            I'm sure you will not sell the house to invest in this scenario, but you might want to "buy" a two shekel ticket just in case it works out this way. In my humble opinion the pieces are ALL in place for end times plotline to be played out in the next few years. Whether that happens or not is in God's hands but it certainly COULD!!!

            To PlumBob: Just remember that the headless horseman had a name, as I recall it was Ichabod Crane

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            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Originally posted by HSB
              To PlumBob: Just remember that the headless horseman had a name, as I recall it was Ichabod Crane
              Touché, HSB. Ya got me.

              This whole affair is getting far too wierd.
              Rice: Bigger West Bank Settlement Threatens Peace Friday, March 25, 2005

              LOS ANGELES — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (search) said Israel's plans to expand a West Bank settlement was "at odds with American policy" and could threaten peace with the Palestinians, marking her sharpest attack of Israel since taking office, it was reported Friday.
              http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151481,00.html

              but Israel is in denial
              The United States supports Israel’s retention of some major population centers such as large West Bank settlements as outcome of negotiations.

              This was said by US ambassador Kurtzer after a Tel Aviv newspaper quoted him as denying any such understanding between two governments.

              Kurtzer claimed he was misquoted and misrepresented in newspaper report on his closed meeting in foreign ministry in Jerusalem.
              from Debka this morning http://www.debka.com/

              I'll see you folks in a couple of days. We're going to go warm up the hidey-hole!

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              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Have you ever seen what an overactive puppy can do with a rag doll? The members of the Israeli people will soon find out how it feels! Why Mr. Sharon ever got himself in the jaws of the "international community" with his immoral "disengagement plan" he is beginning to find out. It is pathetic!

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                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Great article Plumbob! I was just coming here to post it (Rice: Israel Expansion 'At Odds' With U.S.) and you beat me to the punch,LOL. While you
                  warm up the hidey-hole,I think I will double check my bugout bag!

                  HSB in reference to your post about a bible looking Jesus,it has always been my opinion that if some guy just shows up,looks alot like a picture of Jesus in the Bible,or some movie star Jesus in a religious movie and could pull off a miracle like walking on water,I think alot of people would bow down and worship him.

                  HSB in the event that USA is Magog and George is Gog,do you see Russia or China being used to take out the coastal cities?

                  kennygg

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                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Dear Kennygg: thanks for the question. I have to tell you that the path the question leads makes me feel really queesy, OK plain sick. But the questions need to be pursued. Some time ago I heard John Hagee indicate he felt VERY strongly that the coastlands mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39 prophecies referred to the United States with its East and West coast where most of the population lives. Now Hagee believes (or at least he did) that Gog is from Russia and that it will be destroyed by God after invading the mountains of Israel. he said the russian ICBMs have never been retargetted, that they still are programmed to hit key US population and industrial as well as military targets. So Hagee said that when Russia is destroyed it takes America with it by releasing the missiles. I wondered at the time if it made any difference to tell your dear ones that the total destruction of the country resulted from a nasty dying gasp of a former adversary as opposed to direct judgment by God's wrath. I guess if God lifted His hand of protection NONE OF THE DEAD WOULD REALLY CARE A WHOLE LOT WHY THE BOMBS FELL!!!

                    Apart from biblical prophecy if we look at the world today who has the capability to launch or detonate nukes to hit US targets. In terms of detonate if could be sleeper cells with their own or purchased suitcase bombs that went missing from Russia etc. In the realm of launched missiles the list is fairly short (Russia perhaps, China maybe, North Korea possibly, Iran uncertain...) If my scenario turns out to be correct, then the destruction of a major percentage of American troops overseas will bring with it a perceived as well as substantive window of vulnerability to the USA. I can see at least two or three of the above deciding that America was ripe for attack. I don't think the missile shield will help in the final analysis....the only thing that would help is a combination of national REPENTANCE and abandonment of this plan to force Israel to put its very survival at stake. I do not care a whole lot what the secular Jews say by way of analysis, but I do care what the Orthodox, God fearing, Scripture believing Jews are saying. They are saying that America is the greatest threat to Israel that it faces at this point in time.

                    I wondered about the impact of that volcanic mountain sliding into the Atlantic Ocean and producing a tsunami taking out the East coast, and perhaps volcanic/seismic disturbances creating chaos on the West coast...I don't know Kennygg...I'm sick even thinking of this stuff- I have children living on both coasts. I will say again for the 47th time that this will not all unfold overnight (oh it will catch many by total surprise but that should not include us!!!)If you see large contingents of US ground troops being sent to Israel to implement a peace deal head for a spidey hole like PlumBob's. He's from Texas so might be safe.

                    The very future of the country hangs in the balance I believe. I really want to be the one to shout from the rooftop "I WAS WRONG" and would not need nudging from anyone to do so. Why is it that every passing day, every annoucement from Condi Rice or the President, every lame excuse from the PA to explain why another group of recently released terrorists still need to keep building bombs etc etc makes me feel all the more convinced that the risk is growing not diminishing.

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                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      HSB... If you had proposed your scenario five years ago... there are many on this Thread or viewing it that might have thought that you had lost your head... [Ichabod!!!]

                      However, that was then... this is now!!! I cannot escape the growing understanding that 'stuff' [PlumBob's jigsaw puzzle pieces, and Snoopy's end-time understanding] is coming together so quickly that it is more and more difficult to imagine any other scenario!! That too frightens me greatly!

                      George is moving more muscle into the Persian Gulf... right now as we are debating various scenarios... the pressure on Sharon from USA, EUROPA, and NATO must be, becoming intolerable... I see him [Sharon] at some point turning to George in total frustration shouting... If you want this Palestinian State created before the end of 2005, my IDF won't move the Orthodox Jews out... the Police are not numerous enough to get the job done in the telescoped time-frames... SOOooo.... You [George] do the dirty work... You make it happen!.... And then even spidey-holes or hidey-holes Ain’t going to do it, Folks!

                      My goodness... if it weren't for my Faith... my heart would be palpitating far beyond its designed parameters... and that only lasts so long!!!

                      The Time-of-the-Gentiles is just about over Folks... And when He turns His attention back to His People... The Wine Press starts to close!!! What manner of trouble that comes this world has never seen! I pray that the Pre-Trib's are right!!!

                      Blessings...

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                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Just to add a little to the HSB scenario, I have been thinking a lot about the religious nature of the US (me being a Canadian living on the coast just north of the border) at this time. If you look at the red/blue colors on the map, most of the blue is along the coastlines, the red being the (religious right) inland states. Yet so much of the religious fervor right now seems to be settling on this church growth movement, purpose driven, seeker-sensitive stuff. Those who are most likely to say they are believers are also very likely caught up with leaders like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels. Why, do you ask? Because they are no longer taught the prophetic word and have not been for a long time.

                        Jesus said we are not to be deceived, and yes it is possible for the elect to be deceived. How do we avoid it, you ask? Jesus said how when He explained that He had told us all this before it happened in Mark 13. In otherwords, knowing prophecy is the only way to avoid deception and being deceived.

                        If the coastlands, who have the large majority of metropolitan cities, full of all kinds of evil, are destroyed by incoming and/or rogue missiles from where or whoever, who will be left in the country but those who are most likely to view a charismatic leader as the one they have been believing in all along. They are being set up even now to receive the fraud, the fake and the phoney.

                        Again, I believe Jesus said that the only way to avoid deception is to know what is coming, to study what He said would happen and to understand that it is altogether likely that the population of believers we see today are being drawn irresistably into deception as we speak. The church of Laodicea. This is becoming VERY SCARY!

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                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Dear Sandylion

                          Would you please bring this Old Foggie up to date on the development in the Church, which you have described in the following terms:

                          "...church growth movement, purpose driven, seeker-sensitive stuff. Those who are most likely to say they are believers are also very likely caught up with leaders like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels. Why, do you ask? Because they are no longer taught the prophetic word and have not been for a long time."

                          I myself cease not to marvel that believers in Christ can come up with their pet concepts which have no foundation whatsoever in any text (or concept) in the New Testament. The description which you gave above sounds like some kind of production pep-talk which one gets in the average business meeting today

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                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Wow, Zion Gene, that's a BIG question you've asked! I think it deserves a thread of it's own, so perhaps I will answer that in a new one. But since it's a big question that deserves careful consideration and thought, I'll get to it in a day or so. But just to give you a small taste of what I am learning I'll give you a website to peruse for the time being.

                            http://erwm.com/Church%20Growth%20Movement.htm

                            Comment


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Things seem to have settled down now over the Easter Holidays so I thought that I would bring you all up to date on another confirmation of both Snoopy's admonition that maybe things would only make sense when we really were in the end-game, and HBS's reflections on Meshech and Tubal... Here is what we have:
                              =====================
                              I asked a very knowledgable Jewish Friend who is in the Legal Profession to comment on the Ezekiel 38 passage and then only on verse three [3]! His one-line response follows my question...
                              Question:
                              {In the Ezekiel 38 & 39 chapters there is reference to Gog and MaGog [Gog from the Land-of-Gog]. In verse three of Chapter 38... we see that Gog is the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal... In deciphering the root words... is it anyway possible that [Gog of MaGog... Chief Prince of 'Meshech' and 'Tubal'] could be interpreted as [George of the Land-of-George... Chief Prince of 'Materialism' and 'Perversion'] ???}...
                              Response:
                              "well there is nothing to say you are WRONG in this."


                              What then comes to my mind is this...
                              The implications of this are frightening... right now as we trade these e-mails, George is moving three new Battle Groups into the Persian Gulf!!! There is a whole lot of anxiety being raised as the USA, Europa, and NATO put unbearable pressure on Sahron to get this new Palestinian State established... I suspect at some time soon, he [Sharon] is going to turn to George and say... my IDF won't take them off the Land, the Police are not numerous enough to get the job done in the tightened time-frames... SOOooo... you [George] do the dirty-work yourself. And then one has to wonder if Gog really is in the neighbourhood!

                              Yet, when I share my concerns with what appear to me to be sane and lucid Christian Friends, they look at me like I too have lost my head... and my name is neither Ichabod nor Crane!!! But I have grave concerns that we are going to get through the second half of this year without major events... and I mean MAJOR!

                              As Anti-Semitism builds, and specific events in Israel can only be explained by reference to God and His protective intervention, Jews all over the World are going to conclude that the only safe place in all the Planet is Israel itself... Mass, even panic Ailya, will commence... And mark my words, as the Jews leave each Country in North America, South America, Europe, Asia [both near & far East]... The Light of the Good News of the Gospel will likewise flicker and then go out!!!

                              I'm praying real hard that the Pre-Trib's are right!!!

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Multiple Disjointed Comments -

                                Originally posted by kennygg
                                Plumbob While you warm up the hidey-hole,I think I will double check my bugout bag!
                                I carry mine w/ me, wherever I go. We are soul mates, I see. BTW, the wood pile is dry, and the batteries charged.


                                Originally posted by HSB
                                In the realm of launched missiles the list is fairly short (Russia perhaps, China maybe, North Korea possibly, Iran uncertain...) If my scenario turns out to be correct, then the destruction of a major percentage of American troops overseas will bring with it a perceived as well as substantive window of vulnerability to the USA.
                                In addition to the earthquake destruction, if, and just if, all 3 US carrier groups in the ME were to get nuked, that would eliminate one-half of America's fire-power presently at sea.


                                Originally posted by HSB
                                head for a spidey hole like PlumBob's. He's from Texas so might be safe.
                                Texas would not be safe. There are many factors which I will not go into here. I lived (past tense) at ground zero for most of my life. A lady once said to Captian Kirk, "Are you from outer space ?" "No," replied Kirk, "I'm from Iowa. I but now I work in outer space."


                                I feel like I'm watching a tennis game here - Makes me wonder if anyone is really in charge, or whether obfuscation, confusion, and bewilderment are part of the game. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4382343.stm
                                US will accept Israel settlements
                                Maale Adumin settlement in the West Bank

                                Israel is planning to build 3,500 new homes at the Maale Adumin settlement
                                The US ambassador to Israel says that Washington expects Israel to retain control over large Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

                                Dan Kurtzer told Israel Radio that it was unrealistic to expect a full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank in any final status agreement.

                                He denied reports that he had said there was no such understanding between the US and the Israelis.

                                He said he was reiterating pledges by President Bush on the issue.

                                "US policy is the support that the president has given for the retention by Israel of major Israeli population centres [in the West Bank] as an outcome of negotiations," (Kurtzer said.)

                                Originally posted by Sandylion
                                . . .it is altogether likely that the population of believers we see today are being drawn irresistably into deception as we speak.
                                And that is what scares me the most!



                                And finally here are some more thoughts on Israel working cooperatively w/ the EU. The quote below is a good summary, but the whole article is worth reading. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...896728&fid=942
                                High-tech sources: Israel not ready for EU R&D programs
                                The EU has invited Israel to join the EU Seventh Framework Programme for R&D.
                                EU Framework Programmes for R&D establish groups of companies collaborating on joint R&D projects. Under these programs, Israeli companies collaborate with giants such as Royal Philips Electronics (NYSE:PHG; AEX:PHI), France Telecom (NYSE:FTI), Airbus, and Peugeot. The companies jointly develop products, with each company contributing its expertise under specific consortia agreements on the basis of the intellectual property each company brings.

                                Well, maybe this will be REALLY finally.... But more pressure -
                                http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...543328,00.html
                                Palestinian star calls for faster reform
                                . . . In an interview with The Sunday Times yesterday, Dahlan said reforms were not being implemented quickly enough for Fatah, the ruling party, to confront a growing challenge from the most powerful Islamic fundamentalist group, Hamas, in elections this summer. “It’s a race between Hamas and us,” said Dahlan.

                                He blamed the Israelis for a lack of tangible progress since Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, was elected to succeed the late Yasser Arafat in January. “Public expectations are high,” Dahlan said. “There has been no improvement at all in their daily lives and this is the minimum expected.”
                                Last edited by PlumBob; 03-26-2005, 09:52 PM.

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