Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

It looks as if a complete disengagement cannot occur because the valley of Hamongog appears to be in the settlement areas. Hamongog is the place where they bury the dead bodies of the enemy in Ezekiel 39:

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man’s bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

I do not know exactly where the valley of Hamongog is but I do see three clues to its location.

1. Verse 11 says Gog will have a burial place in Israel.
2. Verse 11 also says it is east of the sea.
3. Verse 18 calls these people fatlings of Bashan.

With respect to the first clue, we should consider Israel to be the land God gave to the Jews and not the land as the United Nations or the neighboring countries assert it to be.

As far as the second clue is concerned, we find the valley is east of the sea. Which sea is it talking about? It would be senseless to refer to the Mediterranean Sea because all Israel is basically east of the Mediterranean. I don't believe it will be the Dead Sea either. The area east of the Dead Sea is not in Israel as verse 11 requires. It would be in Jordan who occupies the land of Edom, Moab and Ammon. Jordan is not listed in the group that is destroyed in this terrible event. Eliminating the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea leaves the Sea of Galilee, which has also been called Lake Tiberius and Yam Kinneret.

Finally, the enemies falling upon the mountains of Israel are from Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Libya, Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with them. The end of verse 18 calls all of them fatlings of Bashan. These countries are not from Bashan but may be called fatlings of Bashan because they die there. Bashan was given to the half tribe of Manasseh. Joseph, being the first born of Rachel, was given a double inheritance and his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh were each given a full portion. It is east of the Jordan and north of the Yarmuk. It is now called the Golan.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

FURTHERMORE



I believe that although many of the prophetic books do not follow a timeline, the untimate book of prophecy--The Book Of Revelation--does, and at the beginning of the book it speaks of certain things for a certain time. Then when it is finished with that body of information and predictions, it tells of certain things for times after the previous ones. Here are the texts, with highlighted sections.

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

i understand from this that the history of the then present churches, and those to come within the church age are summarized. Then John speaks of another time slot of events which would come thereafter.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

It is significant to me that John hears the call to “Come up hither.” It reminds me another text in the Book of Isaiah 26:20, where it says,

“Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.”

I believe that both of these texts refer to the same event in the future, when the church (Christ’s ambassadors) will be withdrawn, as a sign of God’s declaration of war on the world’s wicked inhabitants. And not only does John hear that call, but he sees in heaven the 24 elders, which I assume to be the church comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (two twelves). And only after that, does he see the unveiling of the seals and the judgments etc. upon the earth, which I understand to indicate that none of these will come to pass while the church at large is on the earth.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

There are two peoples of God, if I am not mistaken: Ethnic and natinonal Israel ,and the Church comprised of all born-again believers.

I had assumed that there are three judgments which can be applied the Church. The judgment for the sins of its members which took place at the cross; the daily chastening of it individuals which Christ personally oversees now; and the Judgment Seat Of Christ which is still future.

I believe that to say that there is a judgment to purge believers before they they are fit to stand before God, or to be taken up in the Rapture, is not supported by scripture, or by such types as the careless Lot, who had nevertheless to be taken out of Sodom, before God rained fire upon it (the angel Himself said so). I believe that to say otherwise, is to lessen the totality of the forgiveness obtained at the cross for every believer who trusts in Him.

On the other hand, many scriptures establish the fact, that for Israel, there will be a purging period on this earth during the Time Of Jacob's Trouble, simply because they in general have not yet submitted themselves to the righteousness and pardon of God, which is obtained for all those who believe in Christ.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Ron: what a great website of info..and from the CIA no less! Of course now that you have shared that with us, you don't have to ...you know, do serious harm to us, do you?

Seriously I have a question for ZionGene and possibly others. I am tacking this on to the existing submission, trying to conserve my posts (I don't know how many you need accumulate in order to get tagged as a WEDG "addict" but we must be getting close

Anyway ZG you mentioned that the collapse of the British Empire was connected to their renegging on support to the Jews after WW2. I would have thought the British were undermining the Jewish immigration to Israel during the entire duration of their mandate after the first world war, in favour of courting arab sympathies. The book From Time Immemorial shares some really interesting background on this topic. I am personally of British extract and I have to share I have mixed feeling about the history of this people. Oh the arrogance of European powers that thought the whole world was open to their conquest and exploitation. In fact I had a good chat one time with an Israeli sabra (born in the country) who blamed the British for much of the problem in the ME. He said they were absolute masters of playing one faction off against another, while quietly maintaining their own ruthless control. How else can you explain how a handful of redcoat battalions could hold the entire Indian subcontinent for so long. I for one don't think that the "loss" of the "jewel of the crown" was anything other than the liberation of a subject people.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Oh yeah as I was reading HsB's post--- I was thinking that if I was writing a novel about the end times, Javier Solana would be a good name for the AntiChrist . It sounds a bit exotic and Solana looks to me like it means 'sun' or "power".
Dont we know a angel of light who thinks he is powerful.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I thought there were 52 states in America:
#51 Mexico (Mexico probably has more votes than some of the 50 states)
#52 Palestine (We are paying fot it)

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Thanks HSB for the nut shell. I used to think definitely Pre trib rapture but I am really flexible on that. My main reason was that I didn't see the people of God being judged, however if he wants us to stay and provide support for our Israeli friends then here an I send me. And although I long for heaven I'll go when the time is right. I'm certainly looking forward to the ride.

Back to Israel:

When God called Israel home to the Land he told them to go to the Mtns Ez36:8-10, Jer30+31. The enemy of God that serpent of old --the devil---(Allah--the moon god) will come directly against Israel there in the disengagement (usurption) of the settlements of the West Bank--the area given to Gods people. So who gets the Mtns? The UN, EU, Palestinians? The world says it doesnt belong to the Jews.

So when the enemy comes in like a flood won't the God of Israel --Jehovah Nissi , raise up a standard? My heart tells me He wont let these faithful people and all they have worked for be destroyed . For want of just a few people he would have spared Sod and Gormorrah. Zion Bob told us about the sun setting on Brittania when she turned her back on Israel. We see now a testing of the nations. Who will stand with Israel and the God of prophesy? The nations are being weighed perhaps, in the balances.... Perhaps the times of the Gentiles ARE being fulfilled.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

No PlumBob. No other excuse for my mistake!

If my fingers alone did the talking, that would have meant disconnecting them from my brain, and blaming them.

This reminds me of the story of the judge, who agreed to allow only the hand of the thief to remain in jail, because the thief blamed his hand for the crime.

One might also say that it was a Freudian slip which indicated my wish that the USA be expanded, but I am content with the 50 states that we have now.

It would be nice if others, like Ron, would show such zeal for the size of our country, and not do foolishness vis-a-vis Israel that might provoke God to diminish it.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Good Morning, All -

I thought I would post this last night, but decided no - and this morning I have a proper opportunity.

I spent this past week in Washington DC - at a computers-in-healthcare conference. I heard presentations by an infulential Representative & one of Mr. Bush's Cabinet members, listened to Mr. Bush himself in a taped interview, listened to Mr. Greenspan's testimony, and had conversations w/ more than a small handfull of rather well-connected bureaucrats. What struck me as very intersting through the whole process was that not once the whole week, did I hear a single word about the middle east. NOT ONE. Granted, I was in a very - uhhh, "myoptic" conference, but spent considerable time listening to the conversations of others in restaurants, etc. It is as if Israel is a non-issue there. And life goes on.

HSB, I appreciated your post just above - that summarized your premise again. I can genuinely say that I don't know that you've been quite so lucid and succinct in pulling all of your thoughts together, before. Back to HSB's basics, so to say.

Andy, is there a way to add an integral spell-checker to the board? Like ZionGene, I find myself making quite a few typos (granted it wouldn't find the difference between 50 states and 52) but I find that otherwise I must compose in WordPerfect (my word processing program of choice) and pasting in.

ZionGene, I rather imagine that you were thinking of Puerto Rico as #51, and perhaps DC itself as #52. I was amused at the DC license plates, one version of which declares "Taxation Without Representation."

Will write more later -

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Ron, my typo slip just invented 2 more. I will go back and correct that. Thanks for catching me in that error

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

We have a similiar situation developing today with the American Union of 52 mighty states.

I thought there were 50!

And so does the CIA!

Administrative divisions:
Definition Field Listing
50 states and 1 district*; Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia*, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...s/us.html#Govt

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

WendyJ: you will get radically different answers depending on the framework folks are using to interpret end time events. I will briefly explain my own thoughts on the subject:
I think we are getting very close to some major developments in the world scene. The constitution drive in Europe has stumbled but do not for a moment think that the EU is finished. The main force in Europe is ECONOMIC and that includes its relationship with Israel through the ENP (European Neighborhood Policy) about to be confirmed this fall (The Barcelona Accord) on its 10th anniversary. A big champion of this has been Javier Solana, poised to become the first Super Foreign Minister of Europe shortly. This appointment, along with a SEVEN YEAR budget cycle is scheduled to kick in January 1, 2007. Consider these developments as associated with the White Horse (first seal of Revelation).
The main thing America has going for it is its military prowess. Financially it is a basket case, with hemoraging of funds to foreign powers that is now a flood. Look to America to continue to wield the "big stick" to keep other countries in line with US "interests". I see America getting sucked into a Palestinian state creation in the next two years. This will involve a large peace-keeping/peace-making force being deployed to Israel which will bring on the intervention of God Himself as outlined in Ezekiel 38/39. That judgment will start on the Mountains of Israel but extend quickly to engulf the USA mainland itself. Consider these developments to be the Red Horse (second seal of Revelation)
The horrific consequences of the above will trigger international economic collapse, associated with the Black Horse (third seal). Then the world is ripe for the pandemics we have been warned about. That would be the Pale Horse (forth seal). Then we need a little breather!
The Jews will believe that they have passed the big test and God has saved them. They will be wide open to Messiah's arrival (unfortunately they will be deceived) believing that the Gog/MaGog judgment was in fact the equivalent to the Christian Armageddon (but it isn't) and that they are now free to move directly into the time of the Third Temple era as outlined in Ezekiel 40. Their rabbis will also use Zechariah 6 to claim that the horses have now completed their rides..in the case of Zechariah they pull chariots, and announce the days of Messiah are now here. Look for a man with impecible credentials, including a lineage going back to King David..yes even going back through Jesus and Mary Magdalene... thanks to the DaVinci code deception. There will be a period of world peace as this man consolidates his power and control, complete with a new Temple in Israel. The false Millennium will have arrived.
Things change drastically at the mid point of this seven year period, when all out war is proclaimed against the Jews. Their Temple/(at least Tabernacle) gets defiled by the Man setting himself up as god... You can follow the rest of the plot in Revelation (seals 5 through 7 with associated trumpet and bowl judgments). This ends with the Jews in a very tight spot, when they turn en masse to their rightful Lord and King Yeshua, who will deliver them completely and return to set up His glorious kingdom on earth.
Key points above: the Jews think they are going through a thunderstorm, at the end of which the Sun will shine on them as Messiah comes. In actual fact the thunderstorm is followed by a hurricane that destroys their picnic and almost wipes them out. It is only then that the glorious Son appears in the sky.
That's my brief outline of what I think is coming. Where does the rapture of the church saints fit in? Beats me, I have no idea. I cannot detect when or how this occurs. I really hope it is soon, but seriously think it will be much later. We may end up going through much of this agony in order to provide support to the Jews who will again face a holocaust. If so I pray that we will have the faith of the Corrie ten Booms who were prepared to give up their lives. In the meantime sadly look for most of the Christian churches to be totally unprepared for any of what is coming.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Question:

Zechariah chapter 12 verse 7 The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honour of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah . v8 On that day I will set out to destroy the nations that attack Jerusalem....and I will pour out on that house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will llook on me the one they pierced....And chapt 13:In the whole land ...2/3 will be cut down and perish; yet 1/3 will be left in it. This 1/3 I will bring into the fire.

How does Zech 12 +13 relate to our Ezek passages? ON THAT DAY refers to the great and terrible day of the LORD which is not the same time as the God Magog events right? But I like verse 7 where He says he will save the dwellings of Judah. My spirit is so disturbed when I think of Israeli faithful settlers being dragged from their home and land and have it all given over to the usurping mobs. I am going to wrestle with this tonight as I go to sleep

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I read in Haaretz that USA really seems to be muscling Israel in regard to her selling arms to China, and seems to be snubbing Israel so that Israeli officials are not having phne calls returned and US officials are with holding equipment like night vision goggles that the IDF really needs at present---not to mention the disengagement thing. The whole thing makes no sense to me. Israel is running out of friends, but she has us Zion Christians and her Kinsman Redeemer. Here is a report on Yuri Shtern's Judeo Christian Alliance Caucus an historic event in the life of the Knesset. When we pray for Israel , lets not forget to pray for the conversions of Muslims to Christ too. How awesome that Jews recognize the difference Christ makes and see His love for Israel through His followers.

WEbsite:
www.khouse.org/2004/512/

Middle East Update:
The Judeo-Christian Alliance
by Avi Lipkin



Will 2004 be the start of the Messianic Era for Jews and Christians? In January Israel's Parliament, the Knesset, came to the unprecedented conclusion that there is room for a Judeo-Christian alliance to help Israel and to offer some kind of official recognition for the tremendous efforts evangelical Christians have made to support the Jewish State and People everywhere in the world.

Another milestone took place on February 8th, 2004. Israeli Tourism Minister Benny Elon (National Union) asked Christian missionary groups to work to convert Muslims to Christianity in order "to show them the light."

"Go from mosque to mosque and bring the Muslims into the light, to those who preach murder and suicide attacks," Elon said. (I've been saying this for over ten years in Christian churches all over the world. In all three of my books, I have testimonies from former Muslim terrorists who wanted to kill Jews, but when they became Christians, they became lovers of Zion, lovers of the Jews and lovers of all mankind.)

Elon, an Orthodox ordained rabbi who has been Israel's Minister of Tourism in Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government has also, during the last few years, been in the vanguard of what is now clearly becoming an international Judeo-Christian alliance for the defense of Israel.

These two developments are historic watershed events.

Knesset Members (MK) created the "Christian Allies Caucus" on January 5th, 2004, in recognition of the importance to Israel's security of the international pro-Israel Christian community. The caucus is the first of its kind in Knesset history. Its purpose is to streamline communications and coordinate activities between the Knesset and Israel's Christian allies. The caucus is also intended to increase awareness, both in Israel and the international community, of Israel's appreciation for the many and varied contributions that its Christian supporters have made to the well-being of the people of Israel in their day-to-day lives.

Co-chairman MK Dr. Yuri Shtern termed this a "political upgrade" of relations between Israel and its Christian supporters throughout the world. "We will not be demanding that Christians adopt any particular political viewpoint on the conflict here," said Shtern in clarifying the goals of the caucus. "We simply are reaching out to the Christians to support Israel on the basis of our fundamental right to live here in peace and security."....

Six other MK's comprise this caucus: Chemi Doron of Shinui, Gila Gamliel and Gilad Eran of the ruling Likud party, Gila Finkelstein of NRP, Arieh Eldan of the National Union, and Isaac Herzog of Labor.

The caucus MKs reflect the current make-up of the Knesset so that the views of all of Israel's citizens will be represented in the caucus' deliberations. "Israel has no better friend in the world than the United States, and that is in no small part due to our Christian friends in America, and we hope to see the same happen in Europe and elsewhere. Our shared values and beliefs, based on our common Judeo-Christian heritage, are the source of the strong ties between us, and in the post 9/11 world, our long-standing relationship has become more important than ever before," said Chairman Shtern.

Meantime, Gadi Golan of the Israeli Foreign Ministry's religious affairs department delivered an impassioned plea that the Israeli government across the board should stop overlooking their Christian friends and especially that they should cease "humiliating" Christians in the land with visa and tax problems. "As Israelis, we should know the terrible mistakes we have committed, and yet these beautiful people keep going on quietly with their many kind works among us," said Golan.

Most Christian ministries present reported progress in the processing of visas and thanked the Knesset members for their intervention with Ministry of Interior officials. Clarence Wagner, International Director of Bridges for Peace, noted that scores of Christians abroad had contacted his offices welcoming the formation of the Knesset caucus. "There was an amazing response," he said. "The phones were ringing off the hook."

The Knesset Christian Allies' Caucus is the outgrowth of an idea that had been brewing over recent years among Israeli lawmakers, particularly after broad segments of Christianity aligned to stop the construction of a provocative mosque next to the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth. (I wrote about this mosque extensively in my second book, Christian Revival for Israel's Survival.)

Representatives of the three major Christian Zionist organizations with operations offices here in Israel-Bridges for Peace, Christian Friends of Israel (CFI), and the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ)- were present at the caucus' inaugural meeting to discuss areas of cooperation with the caucus MKs....


In a statement, the caucus members said they would seek to:

1) Recognize and further mobilize those Christians around the world who are contributing to the security of the State of Israel and the welfare of the Jewish People.

2) Bring to the attention of the Israeli public the unqualified support Christians are giving to Jewish aspirations in the Land of Israel; and,

3) Provide Christian and Israeli leaders with a Knesset forum for face-to-face encounters and enhanced cooperation....


Secondly, as for Minister Elon's comments about converting Muslims to Christianity, I believe that this is the only chance the world has for peace on Earth and peace in the Middle East. Islam is a triumphalist religion that cannot rest until all other religions are abolished and the whole world is "Dar es-Salaam" (Islamic) - a sure prescription for constant war and destruction. I think that the recognition of this by Jews and Christians is a tremendous breakthrough for Israel and all of humanity. I think that the Messianic Era has now begun in earnest with this Judeo-Christian alliance.

* * *

[Avi thanks David Parsons of the International Christian Embassy of Jerusalem (ICEJ) and the Bridges for Peace organization in the preparation of this article for the March 2004 Israel Today Magazine in Jerusalem. Reprinted by permission of the author.]



storic first in the Knesset.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Maybe indeed there has been a dumming-down of our society in general, which has led to gross ignorance, even among the higher eschelons of our government. Maybe our leaders simply do not know any better, which might be an excuse

Older folks may remember or have heard of a Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse, who was a great bible teacher and lecturer during the first half of the last century.

Because Great Britain was the greatest power at the turn of the 20th. Century, she was given the Mandate over Palestine by the League Of Nations, which extended went through to the latter years of the 1940's, when she was forced to give it up. Then, it was a truism that "The Sun never set upon the British Empire." And as a little boy, I remember singing,

Rule Brittania,
Brittania rules the waves,
Britons never never never, shall be slaves.

In gratitude to the Jewish scientist Dr. Chaim Wisemann who discovered how to synthesize basic ingredients to make explosives--and thereby helped England to win the First World War--Lord Balfour was moved to declare in the famous Balfour Declaration that "His Majesty's government looks with favor toward the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine, " or words similiar to those. But suddenly, the need for Arab oil and Moslem favor arose, and Great Britain began to renege on the commitments of the Balfour Declaration to the Jewish People; and in the late 1940's, She went so far as to actively work against letting the survivors of Hitler's ovens escape to Palestine and the creation of a Jewish State.

Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse declared at the time, when England began to undermine the Jewish presence in Palestine, that at that point, the beginning of the dissolution of the British Empire was initiated by the Great Watcher in Heaven. And so it was. India began the defection from the Empire, and within 20 years or so, the British Empire had practically faded from memory.

We have a similiar situation developing today with the American Union of 50 mighty states.

If Mr. Bush succeeds in leading the effort to dismember the nation of Israel, the American Union will suffer dissolution in a similiar fashion too, and for the same reason that the British Empire of yester-century dissolved.

Some preacher had better talk to our leaders!