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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Thank you, ZionGene, for your wisdom there. Noted!

    Don,
    Originally posted by Don Brooks
    . . . and might add that the concept of SPEAKING God's Will into existence is very fundamentally the very Nature of God Himself. I believe that God's will [Will] is Spoken by the Son [Word] that in turn releases the Spirit to make it reality [Work]... God wills... Son Expresses... Spirit makes it happen.

    . . . AH! But we are His Body on Earth... ergo... The Father's WILL can be DONE on Earth... IF we who are the extension of the Expression do in fact express... thereby freeing the Spirit to DO IT!
    At the expense of sliding slightly off-topic, I've got to press you on this.... My wife and I were discussing this exact topic, not 15 minutes ago.

    What I hear you saying is that what we say is what we get...., or something very closely related to that. Presuming, of course that 'we' are born-again, grafted into the family, children of God. And in that position, we are allowing the Holy Spirit to be in control of our minds, our desires, our circumstances - our lives in their entirety. Is that a yes, or am I misunderstanding you?

    ZionGene, I also want (rather 'desperately') to hear your reaction to my understanding of Don's last post!
    Last edited by PlumBob; 03-22-2005, 11:55 PM.

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    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      PlumBob...

      Yes! An emphatic YES! The Spirit will ONLY do the Father's WILL not my will, wish or thought!!! This is not Name it and Claim it... This is by far much more powerful than that... As we learn to realize the we are not our own, we have been bought with a price... we give Him what is already His... [Our feet, Our hands, Our voice, Our tongue]... He lives His Life through us... Speaking His Will releasing the Spirit to then do the WORK! We're along for the ride... No Sweat!

      Now back to the Thread...

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Originally posted by Don Brooks
        Yes! An emphatic YES! The Spirit will ONLY do the Father's WILL not my will, wish or thought!!!
        Now I can really live with that!
        This is not Name it and Claim it... This is by far much more powerful than that...
        I was wondering how you were going to square that up.

        Obviously, it's a personal struggle on this end. But your thoughts certainly give me a sense of 'new hope.' Thank you.

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        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          So you guys think that I am smart eh! The thing that I do is to hide behind some text or story in the bible, and when I do so, viola! I appear smart. You may notice that I do not know enough about what the scholars say to hardly ever quote one of them. I simply am not that well read! And when it comes to the slight edge that God has given me in Hebrew: put that down to love. Love guys! I love the Hebrew people so much, that I hardly ever forget the meaning of a word in their language, after hearing it once. What I do, is listen to portions like Genesis 1 through 3; Genesis 6; 10; 14; 15; 17; 22; Exodus 12; sections of Deuteronomy; Psalms 1; 23; 51; Isaiah 9; Isaiah 53; in Hebrew. I find that after listening to so much of it, that
          miraculously, I sound like a rabbi in time.

          Also too, you young guys, I have accomplished so little in life for Christ, that I leave such things as jokes up to you: everything that I do from now on had better merit a reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ, or I will look like a picked chicken standing in His presence

          As far as speaking things into existence is concerned, I do not go as far as proponents of the recent movement have gone in the last 20 years or so, for I only believe that God has given this power to His servants, as it relates to bringing into existence, that which God has previously declared will come to pass; but the materialization will need the human element. I gave the examples of Daniel’s prayer in Daniel 9; and Simeon’s and Annas’ prayers in Luke, to bring the Christ Child into the world. I have recently added the
          case where God “recruited” Rebecca in pushing Jacob up to a position above Esau: God told her and not the father what he wanted done with the boys. I imagine that she whispered some great things in the ears of the baby Jacob.

          I quote again the text in Ezekiel which seems to say that God even withholds His mercy from wicked folks, unless a third party asks Him to do so. And I once again, I hide behind a text. Ezekiel 33:25-31 supports my point.

          But then of course, there is the general materializing of events and outcomes
          which are effected by the words of nearly anybody, and in this regard I believe that the words of a parent relative to a child–unless the parent is opposing a child who is trying to serve God–will be realized. But even here, I have observed that God hardly ever uses a child whose mother (especially) verbally declares her despite toward the service of God. And the opposite is true too. And remember that Israel was rightly afraid of the words of the heathen prophet Balaam!

          Notice the points in Ezekiel 33:25-31 below, and especially the sense of the last two verses. These folks needed mercy if ever any one did!

          There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. 29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. 30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I
          recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD

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          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            wow- leave the computer for a day or two and you miss 15 posts.
            I want to affirm ZionGene's post number 434. It deserved to be in bold print because the message is so important. This should be sent to the White House directly, perhaps on Thursday of this week when the Jews in Israel are fasting for Purim and asking for our support to stop the suicide of their country. We are witnessing a mighty country the USA enter the crossroads of history folks. On the recent Israel National Radio broadcast of Tamar Yonah (America friend or foe?) it was mentioned that they now believe America to be the BIGGEST threat to the future of the country...let me say that again the BIGGEST threat to the future of the country I almost cried when I heard them say that they can trust Only in the God of Israel and must seek Him out. Sounds like the bones are gaining some flesh SandyLion. (aside: I do NOT believe George Bush is the AntiChrist...but I have come to the sad conclusion that he is probably Gog, and that his coming intervention in this damnable peace deal will destroy him and the country with him)

            To Snoopy- I doubt that the Gog "war" connects at all with the 2/3 casualty rate that Don the Baptist was referring to. Rather I think that refers to a coming holocaust a little further down the pike. In the near future I see the destruction of Gog and his "horde" as basically between him and God directly. This event will do a whole lot to awaken the dependence of Israel on the Ancient of Days.

            Andy said "people of Israel are idolators right now. They don't worship the true God. They worship idols of gold and silver (money, fancy cars, etc)" Can I ask on what basis you can say that? Have you ever been to the country, have you met any of the people living in the settlements? The people I have met over there are not what you describe at all!! Many are searching for God in the Torah (and I suspect they will find Him after all!!!) Remember how Jesus opened up the Scriptures to the disciples on the road to Emmaus...folks he wasn't quoting from the New Testament. The pages of the Tanach speak about HIM.

            Finally to ZionGene: I agree completely that the hook is not the bait in Ezekiel. Gog goes after the bait but it is a sovereign God who drags him into the Mountains of Israel for judgment. I enjoyed also your reference to "horsemen do not ride cranes". My point was not that the troops arrive on big fowl (although the whole exercise will be foul ) rather that the troops arrive just as the Hebrew said they would, in "swift flight". You did not like my suggestion that "soos" could in fact be applied to modern jet transports since the word NORMALLY in the Scriptures refers to horses. Tell me if you expect Gog to arrive "on horseback" as the only option, personally I see them coming in the "big birds" that use hangars instead of nests.

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            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Stop press



              The Law Committee of Israel's parliament has voted to recommend to the Kenesset that it vote to pass a bill authorizing a referendum on Mr. Sharon's plan to force Jews out of Gaza and parts of Judaea and Samaria

              http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078027574097

              (Within the last two weeks, demonstrations were held by both those in favor of "disengagement," and those who were not. The rally of those against had about 100000 people; and those for withdrawal had a about 10000--a margin of about ten to one. What does that tell us about how the referendum vote will go? We Christians need to pray pray)

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              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                I am having a little trouble with the “hook in the jaw” comments and needing a little clarification. It seems to me, that God would in no way be baiting a nation to do evil. Is it that the Israeli conflict is the bait and once a nation takes a bite at solving the problem against God's will, God will reel him in for judgment? That almost makes it sound like Israel is this great temptation. A thought not, in my understanding, associated with God's will. Temptation has always been on the side of evil.
                Next is the understanding of the “fast flight” or “crane” definitions. When is it appropriate to be taking things literally and when do we have to try and understand the meaning behind the words. It must be hard for someone in his day, looking so far into the future with a vision of things unimaginable and try to explain them in words of his time. Also we have the understanding that God is writing through him to preach to the people of that time, as well as to the people of our time. I do not think there is a code we have to dissect or decrypt, I believe that it will make sense when we see it. An army on horseback may very well be what happens, as many riot policing situations happen on horseback. In my lay opinion I believe that the events of the “End of days” will unfold almost as literally as you can read them from the scriptures, as to give no false understanding as to what is happening. This makes the unbelievers unmistakably turn their back on God, and gives the believers no reason to question what is happening causing the return to the holy land of the world's Jews.

                Snoopy.....

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                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Dear Snoopy

                  Generally when a believer makes a statement in the Spirit, he or she is hardly aware of its profoundity. Daniel did that in the closing chapters of his book, where it is stated in Daniel 12:8-10:

                  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall
                  be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


                  Snoopy, you said in your last post, "I believe that it will make sense when we see it, " which in my opinion is a paraphrase of some of Daniel's words in the text above.

                  In seminary I was introduced to a fancy theological term called "the hermeneutic," which I came to understand meant the method of interpretation..

                  Snoopy, I think that you have just revealed the hermeneutic or method of interpretation which the Lord would have me apply to events which I believe that He is currently revealing. If the words and symbols of a prophetic text have not become quite clear to the average born-again believer, then we are not in the time of its fulfillment.

                  Snoopy, I am searching you last post to see if there is not another gem which I might have missed


                  Thanks you very much.

                  ZionGene

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                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Well I am glad to have helped. Sometimes inadvertantly we surprise ourselves. I am intriged by this forum. The knowledge that is here is incredible. Sharing different perspectives and feelings can lead to so much growth. In the dark times ahead, it is reassuring to know there are friends we can turn to.

                    Snoopy

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                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      I was asked some time back if I believe that actual calvarymen on horses will fullfil the Ezekiel 38:4 text. Because I believe that the bible is the best commentary on itself, and also, that earlier use of words in the bible give a clue as to what they mean later on, I select the first nine or so earliest instances of the use of the Hebrew word "Paw-ra-shim," which is translated "horsemen" in the English text. This is the word used in Ezekiel 38:4

                      Genesis 50:9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen: and it was a very great company.

                      Exodus 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon.

                      Exodus 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

                      Exodus 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

                      Exodus 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

                      Exodus 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

                      Exodus 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

                      Exodus 15:19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

                      Joshua 24:6 And I brought your fathers out of Egypt: and ye came unto the sea; and the Egyptians pursued after your fathers with chariots and horsemen unto the Red sea.

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                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Gene, although I tend to interpret Scripture very literally, I don't think in this case the word horsemen can be taken literally unless these events are farther in the future than I believe them to be. Now if "Paw-ra-shim" were to be translated as "cavalry" it could happen next week.

                        There is simply no country in the world that has any type of credible horse cavalry force whatsoever,with the exception of a few ceremonial units, and horse cavalry (or any other type of military unit) cannot be trained overnight. On the other hand, all of the nations likely to be involved in this conflict have large elements of armored cavalry.

                        The last horse cavalry unit to see combat action was, if memory serves, the US 26th Cavalry (Philippine Scouts) which was effectively destroyed during the Japanese invasion of the Philippines during WWII.

                        In this case, I have to defer to Hal Lindsey's theoty that John (and by extension Ezekial and Daniel) were shown things that they simply had no words to express. Another key to this is Daniel's prophecy, referenced by both you and Snoopy, that things would become clearer as the time nears.

                        Just my $.02

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                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Well, considering the latest developments, and the movements of American forces toward the Persian Gulf, it sure looks as if George W. Bush is not Gog after all. Gog is said in the text to be protecting Iran--the "Persia" of the Ezekiel 38:5--which I doubt that GWB has in mind to do any time soon.

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                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Dear RFN

                            I appreciate your input

                            RadioFreeNarnia, I dare to say that the composition of the paw-ra-shim has to correspond to how the term is used in the bible, and specifically how it is used firstly, secondly, thirdly, etc.--not the other way around. The later use does not determine the primary, or fundamental use of the term. And throughout the Five Books of the Bible--and probably everywhere else besides--it refers to fighters on horseback according to the context. I would also like to see where it is used anywhere in the bible to mean anything besides fighters on horse-back, and the Ezekiel 38:4 definitely makes that connection--"and all thine army, horses and horsemen".) It connects soosim (horses) with paw-ra-shim. If another meaning of paw-ra-shim is otherwise than fighters on horseback, then that variant meaning has to be gleaned from somewhere else--maybe from how the American military goes about things, but not from the bible.

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                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Dear RFN

                              You touched on a point which most of us seem unwilling to consider, and that is that the Gog attack just may be farther down in the future than we guess. Also, RFN, how long does it take to develop a hundreds of thousands of horses? It takes a relatively short time in terms of human life for a horse to mature. In six years the horses could be ready.

                              Do you know RFN: it was in 1967--37 years ago--that I was claiming that the attack on Syria--according to Isaiah 17--was the next item on God's agenda! If someone had told me that it would be more than 30 years down the road, I would have said, "No way." But now, looking back, I say to myself, that if it happens tomorrow, that that would not be a long time from when I expected it to occur

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                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Open question for those who have traveled thoughout Israel .Who do the folks there in the West Bank and Gaza think are Gog and Magog?

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