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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by Don Brooks
    What if... All those who come out of the Great Tribulation are all Israelites?
    That doesn't seem likely to me. Let me elaborate.

    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand (200 million. - RFN): and I heard the number of them
    If an army of 200 million could be numbered, then a multitude which no man could number would, by definition, be at least one order of magnitude higher. Therefore, since I see no reason whatsoever to view either passage as figurative, the multitude before the Throne would be at least 1 billion souls. I don't think there are one billion Jews alive today.

    Comment


    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Doug...

      A couple of verses come to mind regarding "Every Man that cometh into this World"... Isaiah 49:6... I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into this world.

      SOOooo.... I believe that every man gets enough "Light" to make an intelligent decision that will be confirmed for all of Eternity. There are no Groups of People without an excuse.... Romans 2:20-32... They knew God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened... All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way!

      Add to this that the early Christians took the Gospel into the very areas we call "Dark Continents"... Africa - Asia - India - etc. It would seem to me that the world has been addressed... Once again... we are substituting our wishes in place of His Word. If He says that no one has an excuse for not choosing Him... then I'm going to agree with Him... Even the Heavens declare His handiwork... No! My good friend... there are no Groups of People that fall outside of this phrase... John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into this world". What Group(s) of People(s) fall outside that inspired expression?

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Dear Radio…

        If you were to go back in Revelation to Chapter #5… you might also see that even before the seals were opened by the Lamb who is worthy… v-9… there were millions and millions of Saints… out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation… v-11… and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands… all in Heaven and before the Anti-Christ is let loose… Ch #6 v-2

        Now come with me to Romans 11:24-26… The branch of Israel has been broken off so that the wild branch [Gentiles] can be grafted into the existing Olive Tree… Now note Paul’s caution… “That blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in”. See also II Cor. 3:14-16… clearly indicating that when the time of the Gentiles is up… His People turn to Him all together in a Day as the veil is removed from their eyes.

        Once the 144,000 Israelites have been sealed and sent… we need to understand, this is like 144,000 Paul’s [who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament] going out on Mission trips all over the Planet… they cannot be killed until their time is up. It is my opinion that those added to the Millions of Chapter three that constitute the numbers of Chapter seven… all come from Israel as the Time of the Gentiles is over… It is also my opinion that this Time of the Gentiles concludes with the Rapture…
        Last edited by Don Brooks; 03-19-2005, 10:17 PM.

        Comment


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. Rev. 7:9 specifically states that these people have come out of (the) great tribulation, so pre-Rapture Christians, for the most part, don't really count on that score. About the only persecution I personally receive for the Faith is that people call me rude names on Yahoo discussion boards. This is obviously not to say that persecuion doesn't happen today, but it is really the exception rather than the rule. Only in a very few places are believers forced to suffer as did the early Church.

          That leaves us with the Jews. According to Judaism 101, there are only about 13-14 million Jews alive today. This is obviously not a "number that no man could number."

          I don't remember right off hand who first said it, but the Golden Rule of Interpretation states: "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

          Going by this rule, I truly believe that my interpretation is the correct one.

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            RFN, sorry, can't agree w/ some of that one....

            Originally posted by Radio Free Narnia
            About the only persecution I personally receive for the Faith is that people call me rude names on Yahoo discussion boards.
            You're one lucky dude....

            This is obviously not to say that persecuion doesn't happen today, but it is really the exception rather than the rule. Only in a very few places are believers forced to suffer as did the early Church.
            Next time I see you I'll tell you some (personal) stories. It isn't pretty, & it isn't fun - but it really, really does happen. Right here in the good ole USA, in 2005.
            Last edited by PlumBob; 03-20-2005, 01:22 AM.

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            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Hello Doug...
              Little or no persecution because you are a Christian??? My goodness, Jesus said... Don't be surprised when they persecute you for my Name's sake, they persecuted me... is the slave more important than the Master? They persecuted me and they WILL persecute you too! If there is no persecution, it is worth the analysis as there may also not be much life either.

              I agree wholeheartedly with PlumBob... I have personal experiences that you need to hear about... but... what about the 160,000 documented martyrs of the year 2000, growing to 169,000 this past year!!! Not to mention the Millions of Christians being ethnically cleansed as we speak??? You must have heard about the Chinese Christians that died by the millions when China went Communist??? I really believe you are not here on the same Planet as the rest of us... And, my good friend... its going to get a whole lot worse. We have been adopted into the Commonwealth of Israel... From the World's perspective... after they get the Saturday Worshipers, they are coming for the Sunday Worshipers!!! That’s YOU and ME!

              By-the-way... I noticed that you placed the little word the inside ()'s as it does not appear in the original... Do you grant that the Millions of Christians dieing today in Somalia, the millions who have died in China, the Millions who died in Russia under the Bolsheviks, Lenin & Stalin felt Tribulated??? They all came out of great tribulation... Jacob's Troubles is a Wine Press specific to the Israelites [Jacob's Offspring - Israel] Are you suggesting that Jacob’s Troubles are applied to the Gentiles? For what purpose? I think we have here unfolding, two kings of Troubles... #1 Satan's Wrath which is aimed at Saints and #2 God's Wrath which is aimed at Sinners who have been turned over by Himself to their own lusts, and His own People [Jacob's Offspring]... it is only Jacob's Offspring [the one-third remaining] that turn to Him as there is NO One else for them to turn to!!!
              SOOooo.... Once again I say... Look at Rev. 5 and see the uncounted Millions of His Children. The difference in Rev. 7 are those who came out of great tribulation in the last days... {Last days] is an interesting thought... Joel's prophecy about the Spirit being poured out in the LAST DAYS was confirmed by Paul as happening at Pentecost... therefore all Martyrs in the last 2000 years have been Martyred in the LAST DAYS!!! Again at the beginning of Hebrews we see that God has spoken in times past through Prophets etc. etc. BUT in these LAST DAYS by His Son!!! I'm not sure you can insert your (the) here as you did in your last post!

              Comment


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                First off, I’m not Doug.

                Second, I should have said that there is little or no persecution of Christians in America. I am well aware of what happens to Christians today in China, India and Somalia, as well as other places, and their fate should make us hang our heads in shame when we feel persecuted. Honestly, have you ever been seriously threatened with physical harm because of your faith? Perhaps I just have a thicker skin than most.


                The phrase “great tribulation” is used only three times in Scripture (Mat. 24:21, Rev. 2:22 and Rev 7:14) and is always propheticin nature.

                "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
                When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
                Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
                Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
                Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
                And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
                But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
                For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mat. 24:14-21

                This positively identifies the time period involved. I said nothing about the last days. Furthermore, while Revelation 5 mentions four beasts, twenty-four Elders and millions of angels, they are not, with the possible exception of the elders (who are unidentified) Church-Age Christians, so that argument is completely specious.

                Comment


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Originally posted by Lay it to Heart
                  PlumBob . . . Damascus has never been taken away from being a city.

                  HSB . . . What hook in the jaw?
                  . . . the story is out ‘bout Iran having purchased 12 each X55 or Kh-55 cruise missiles with a 1875 mile range for a 200 kiloton bad boy (Buy stock in headache medicine now). The hook in the jaw may not be oil or contracts but instead nuclear instability.
                  Hello, Lay it to Heart -

                  In an attempt to perhaps bring the thread a tiny bit back toward being on-topic -

                  I certainly can't argue for or against your Damascus summation. But it IS my understanding that Damascas is possibly the oldest organized city currently in existence.

                  My appreciation of the current ME situation is that absolutely nobody is in control! At least Syria, Egypt, and Saudi are in the throes of governments trying to stay in control. Iran wants to get enough respect that they can play in the same sand box, and thinks that they can get there by being a bully. N. Korea is in the same mindset, by the way. The Afgans are wishing every body else would go home. Then we have the smaller kingdoms and shiekdoms, etc, such as the UAE, Qtar, etc - they too, are wishing everyone else would just go away, so they can continue doing what they've always done. I see Russia and China as wild cards - loose cannons. Russia has huge oil reserves, but because of the lingering effects of communism, they still don't (IMHO) have the infrastructure to get their product to market efficiently enough to be able to compete w/ the Arabs. China, of course, is a huge consumer, and is going to act in whatever way gets them a steady supply of oil, whatever the cost.

                  So what does that have to do w/ the end times? I really like your concept of the 'hook' being a civilized world doing whatever it can to prevent nuclear war. I haven't mentioned it before in this thread, but I have continued to muse about what made President Bush do, what appears to me to be a 180 on the basic questions of Israeli soverignty. I don't want to stick up for him excessively, because quite frankly, I don't much like his current stance. BUT - I do think he's got a lot more altruistic motive than the fellow he took over from, for sure. I just have this suspicion that he knows a lot more about what's going on over there than we do, in spite of CNN's best efforts to educate us to the truth yeah, right - and that he (President Bush) hasn't really completely gone nuts, but is trying to keep a lid on a really hot pot.

                  Iran could very easily nuke not only Israel, but other Arab countries with which it just didn't see eye to eye - as you said, wow what a headache that would be. Certainly Russia wouldn't cry about that - anything that makes oil more scarce makes theirs more valuable, in spite of the fact that they really can't efficiently produce it. But shoot, who cares about price, if it gives you control. Iran starts the shooting match, Russia sends some forces down to take care of the stragglers. The EU steps up and miraculously has a fellow who can calm every body down, and has all the answers - there ya have it....

                  We won't know the validity of HSB's scenario (as outlined in posts #1, 3, 5, .... I'll quit teasing you about that someday, HSB) until we see it - but quite clearly, the whole situation is bcoming more destabilized by the day. In summary, I suspect that we'll know the answers soon enough. I think the next thing I'll do is go read Isa again, particularly looking at ch 17.

                  P.S.
                  RickA, I really appreciated you posting the article Texan Relies on Bible in Israeli Oil Dig. Zion Oil's web site is at http://www.zionoil.org/ I've been watching them for several years, too. It seems to me that an energy independent Israel, or worse, an oil-exporting Israel, would be a real burr under Russia's blanket. All the more reason to want to shut them down.

                  HSB, maybe you would be so kind as to review the map at http://www.zionoil.org/drillsite.htm which shows the location of their Ma'anit #1 well, and comment about how close this is to the 'West Bank' region that is soon to be dispossessed! By the way, HSB, your window of opportunity to visit the settled territories again may be rapidly closing.
                  Last edited by PlumBob; 03-21-2005, 12:37 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Sorry Doug...
                    Hello Radio...
                    We can waltz around and around this issue but this thread really is addressing Ezekiel 36 - the Mountains of Israel...

                    Let me conclude with these thoughts. Rev 5 references... V-9 Whom is it that is redeemed by His Blood out of every kindred, and tougue, and people, and nation??? Possibly Church Age Christians? Are you suggesting that there are only twenty-four [kindreds, and tougues, and peoples, and nations]???

                    Then in v-10 Whom has He made kings and priests??? Possibly Church Age Christians? Note: I Peter 2:5 Ye also [Church Age Christians] as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Note: Also Rev. 1:6 And hath made us [Church Age Christians] kings and priests unto God......

                    SOOooo... the unnumbered... Ten Thousand times Ten Thousand and Thousands upon Thousands are the REDEEMED who have been made kings & priests... These are not Angles... Right?

                    Are you suggesting that its the Angles & the four Beasts who have been REDEEMED??? Remember here they are clearly saying... "for thou wast slain, and hath REDEEMED US to God by thy Blood out of every kindred, and tougue, and people, and nation... continuing on to "hast made US unto our God kings and priests"... Enough said!

                    I'd be interested in your opinions on the Ten Vergins; and on the Leah / Rachel 'Pictures' presented???

                    Comment


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      hi plumbob. the well location is not in the occupied area, so should not be vulnerable to politics (perhaps terrorist strike though ) the location is just inland from Caesarea which was the ancient Roman headquarters in Judea. That is where Pontius Pilate actually resided most of the time.

                      I also was intrigued by the "hook" potentially being connected to threat of nuclear strike. Thanks for that Lay it to Heart! On a related theme I have wondered if the "fire on the coastlands" comes from angry coalition members after the destruction of their forces on the mountains of Israel. If so, then a ballistic missile shield will not be effective after all. Are you aware that elsewhare in the Scriptures the words for Meshek and Tubal are translated as a'possessions' and 'perversions' respectively...so Gog could also be the chief prince head of a nation known for its focus on materialism and sex.

                      To Don the Baptist: let's keep this thread focused on Ezekiel and the mountains of Israel. Start a new thread for the 10 virgins or the Rachel/Leah "pictures"
                      Last edited by HSB; 03-21-2005, 02:35 AM.

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                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Here's an interesting development!


                        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._nm/mideast_dc

                        Israel's New Jerusalem Plan Angers Palestinians

                        2 hours, 52 minutes ago

                        Top Stories - Reuters

                        By Dan Williams

                        JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel plans to build 3,500 new homes for Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank to cement its hold on Jerusalem, government sources said Monday, drawing Palestinian warnings that peace efforts were at risk.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Originally posted by HSB
                          . . . so Gog could also be the chief prince head of a nation known for its focus on materialism and sex.
                          Well, that narrows it down to about a dozen

                          Jeanie, thanks for that really interesting link. Again, I think the end game will be something that all of us here aren't even able to imagine. Someone here mentioned the concept of a "secure bridge" or other kind of 'secure highway link' between the west bank and gaza before, if I remember correctly, as a way to give contiguity. The building of new homes in Jerusalem certainly gives the Israeli government places into which they can relocate the settlers.


                          Later in the day -

                          #2 hand over is done
                          http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1111288725732
                          JPost.com Mar. 20, 2005
                          Tulkarm transferred to PA control

                          At 8:00 p.m. Monday evening Tulkarm was transferred to Palestinian security control, but Israeli and Palestinian officials did not sign a disputed protocol which had delayed the handover.

                          Both sides agreed that, for now, the nearby villages of Saida and Ilar would remain under Israeli control and in a month's time the situation would be re-evaluated and it would be decided whether the two villages would be handed over as well. However, the IDF agreed to remove a checkpoint at Nabta outside the city.
                          So now we wait for the hammer to fall....
                          Last edited by PlumBob; 03-21-2005, 02:50 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            great article Jeanie! I know the government wants to close the loop around Jerusalem on the east side and secure its future as part of Israel. Maale Adumin is a big community due east of Jerusalem. I wonder exactly where these homes are likely to be built. Regarding bypasss roads the country is full of bypass roads that operate like the beltway inetrstate highways around American ciites to allow cars to get by arab cities.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              There may in fact be a referrendum on disengagement. Both sides are claiming victory -

                              From the Jerusalem Post, qouted in part....

                              JPost.com Mar. 20, 2005
                              Sharon loses Likud battle to so-called 'rebels'

                              Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suffered an apparent political defeat to the so-called Likud rebels on Monday, when the Likud Knesset faction voted to enforce coalition discipline in favor of the budget in the Finance Committee on Tuesday and in favor of a national referendum on disengagement in the Law Committee on Wednesday.

                              At the conclusion of a stormy Likud meeting that stretched more than six hours, coalition chairman Gideon Sa'ar passed the proposal against Sharon's will by a vote of 16 to 11, with three abstentions. Sharon opposed the proposal because of his fierce opposition to a referendum, but both his associates and the Likud rebels claimed victory at the end of the day.

                              The decision obligates four Likud rebels to support the budget against their will and MK Roni Bar-On to support a referendum against his will or to voluntarily step down from the committees and be temporarily replaced by another Likud MK.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Dear Don

                                After being away from this forum for a few days, I noticed your last comment about the Freemasons. In retrospect, I think I did saw something about the "Freemasons" thing in Israel, somewhere in the Golden Report. I remember thinking then “How do the Freemasons have any connections whatsoever with biblical prophecy`?” When did they become that important? Then there was something about the Lumaniti etc. I wonder how biblical scholars can mix such apples and oranges? And I suspect that if either Daniel or John The Revelator had seen any of these groups, they would have had to scratch a match to see them. The Boy Scouts figured more prominently to the prophets!

                                I base my response on the texts below, which is found in Ezekiel 8:8-16, and in Hosea 3:4 thru 5

                                Ezekiel 8:8. Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. 9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. ...11... and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark,...?... 14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house,...and they worshipped the sun toward the east..

                                (Now there's an example of the descent of Israel into a secret society, if ever there was one, and I dare to say that all of them today--whether they be in America or Africa, or wherever–could be described in approximate terms)
                                Notice how they attach to a holy site

                                Then there is this comment of another prophet, who indicated the point where Israel and the Jews would forever abandon such backslidings and associations. Hosea 3:4-5 puts it this way:


                                “ For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days”.


                                In summary, The “many days” of the above text is generally interpreted to refer to the last two thousand years of Jewish history, which began at the fall Of Jerusalem.

                                Negatively speaking, the Jews have ever since been without a local king; and without their own prince--such as Herod Agrippa et al, who were Jewish authorities appointed by an external political power such as Rome--over two thousand years ago; they have not had a daily sacrifice since the destruction of the Temple; and have been without the ephod, which is the symbol of their priesthood.

                                Positively speaking, the Jewish People have permanently departed from backsliding into the evil of idolatry (“without an image”); and most significantly as far as this discussion goes, have been without teraphim

                                Below is an example the adulteration of the religion of Jehovah and paganism, such as was often practiced by Israel. The word teraphim figures prominently in the text. In Judges 18:14-18

                                ...Do ye know that there is in these houses an ephod, and teraphim, and a graven image, and a molten image? 15 And they turned thitherward, and came to the house of the young man the Levite, even unto the house of Micah, and saluted him.... 17 And the five men that went to spy out the land went up, and came in thither, and took the graven image, and the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image:... 18 And these went into Micah's house, and fetched the carved image, the ephod, and the teraphim, and the molten image....


                                Since the time of when Jacob’s wife Rachael was said to sit on the teraphim of her father to conceal them; to the time when Gideon’s father had a sleuth of them; right through to the exiles of North and South Israel–underlined in the ministry of Ezekiel–Israel already had a problem of with teraphim, which were symbolic items associated with superstiution, and heathen and occultic practices, somewhat like the fetishes and symbols of certain African religions of today.

                                If I have my interpretation right, the Hosea text indicated that after and during the second exile--and evermore--Israel would never again have the problem of the teraphim–this would have been permanently excised from our beloved Jewish People.

                                If there is anything which I can safely describe as superstitious or teraphim-like, it would be secret institutions such as Freemasonry etc., which have illegitimately attached themselves like barnacles to Western Christian societies. None of them have ever had any proven historic ties with Solomon, or any Jewish political authorities, and no one appointed them. And when I hear God complain through Ezekiel about what Israel was doing in secret, it fits lie a glove to what secret societies–whether they be ours or Africa’s--do today in the name of God

                                Come see the Jews, who are learned to be rightly suspicious of nearly everything religious, which originates among Gentiles--to the extent of even mistakenly throwing out Their Baby (Jesus) with the wash ,so to speak–come see them, as a recently nascent political entity in the Land–come see them being politically influenced by the likes of a semi-religious secret society such as Freemasons. To me the very notion is silly, and if present-day political authorities in Israel are being influenced and infiltrated by the Freemason, I would say that my otherwise astute Hebrews have descended into gross stupitiy and silliness, and they are dumber than I thought. I also wonder how
                                Christians can manage to include such a group as Freemasons in their biblical
                                prophetic calculus. I think that I may have a good chance to sell the Brooklyn Bridge

                                But there is a very dark evil side of this alleged connection between present-day Israeli authorities and Freemasons which may escape some of us

                                I read this book about eight years ago which spoke of the “Illuminati” or some such group, which allegedly had their birth among the Jewish authorities who connived for the death of Jesus, and who have allegedly undermined every good and decent human government among the Gentiles ever since, with the secret agenda of "ruling the world". And they are liable to crop up anywhere. And their identity is supposed to be slippery--but ever- present nevertheless. I say that this is the kind of thing that Gobbels and the Hizbola would rejoice to think about; and the alleged facts in this book were compiled by a true-blue Aryan Christian. He had this cap and this thick moustache, and all he had to do was to salute and proclaim "Heil...." When I read the book, it gave me the creeps, and I marveled at the depths of evil to which people can go.

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