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    Guest replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    ZG, I agree with PlumBob. Your level of discernment in these matters appears to be growing rapidly, and you are a blessing to all of us. We can all learn from you. Please continue as you are able.

    WLNF

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    When I was a little child, my family were very poor. I did not have lunch money, nor shoes to wear many days. Also, I came from a broken home. And guess what baffled me then WLNF? I was mistreated by my teachers and other children as if I was a criminal. I remember going off by myself many times and asking God what was so wrong about me.

    As I began to study the bible and gain more experience, I recognized the fact that human nature is indeed fallen and wicked, and that the crowd is generally going in an evil and wrong direction. I had experienced and proven on a personal level, that even children have a secret disdain for one who is weak, or is known to want to do right. We are affected by the Fall more than we realize (emphasis added)
    ZionGene, I believe that you are becoming more acutely able to bring this matter to its true focus, with each passing day. Which is likely to be another indicator of the approaching end-of-the-matter.

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    The Gentile nations--all of them-- are getting in a position to receive a smack in the mouth, and Israel is toying with The Time Of Jacob's Trouble
    I am reminded of the example, however, of Abraham in the story that concludes:
    Gen 18:32 Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten." NASB
    Perhaps we need to begin an ernest prayer vigil, that God will not smack All of the Gentile nations in the mouth too terribly hard, if only for the sake of those of us here who are faithful to Him.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Dear WLNF

    When I was a little child, my family was very poor. I did not have lunch money, nor shoes to wear many days. Also, I came from a broken home. And guess what baffled me then WLNF? I was mistreated by my teachers and other children as if I was a criminal. I remember going off by myself many times and asking God what was so wrong about me.

    As I began to study the bible and gain more experience, I recognized the fact that human nature is indeed fallen and wicked, and that the crowd is generally going in an evil and wrong direction. I had experienced and proven on a personal level, that even children have a secret disdain for one who is weak, or is known to want to do right. We are affected by the Fall more than we realize

    Now here we have a situation where Ms. Rice does not say that a cessation of terroriism is the key to peace, but that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is. That is simply not true. You mean to tell me ,that for over fifty years of violence--long before Mr. Sharon came up with his expulsion plan of three of so years ago--that the underlying cause for a lack of peace in the middleast, was because Israel had not wihdrawn from Gaza? What caused the lack of peace before Israel captured Gaza in 1967?

    But Israel is the "poor" whipping boy at this time, and She can do no right. It just simply amazes me how the truth is twisted in this case. And look how the "Settlers," who have invested up to 40 years of their lives where they are, at the encouragement of their government: look at how they are now been portrayed as demonic. It is planned to put these families in trailers, after evicting them by force. Can you imagine that!

    But I can understand how Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush and the Arabs and Mrs Rice and the EU may all be deceived and not know it, but the most evil of them in my opinion is that present leader of Israel. The Gentile nations--all of them-- are getting in a position to receive a smack in the mouth, and Israel is toying with The Time Of Jacob's Trouble
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-22-2005, 10:02 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    ZG,

    I agree with everything you said about the Gog invasion and a person's salvation not being dependent on their attitude toward prophesy.

    I am TOTALLY baffled by Sharon, and by Bush for that matter. Bush's statement essentially calling Israel an "occupier" and Condie's latest statements that the turnover of settlements being key to the peace process shouldn't go unchallenged. Maybe they are, especially by the evangelical council that meets with the White House representatives every week, and we just don't hear about it. Moreover, Hamas has gone on record as saying that the turning over of the settlements will in no way stop their armed goal of acquiring ALL of "the occupied land". Yet, we promise $3B to the Palestinians to make "peace" happen.

    Anymore, I just shake my head in amazement. But then, I realize that all this is part of a larger plan that has been foretold for thousands of years. I guess we need to focus more on what we know will result from all this rather than on the near term activities. When we do that, it's more comforting in a way but no less amazing in its own right.

    WLNF

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    Guest replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob, the courts and the Attorney General in Israel won't do a thing! I hope that God will. What an immoral spectacle!

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Not even Saul or Ahab--the two most ungodly leaders in Israel of old--did get in cohoots with the enemy. Both of them were killed while fighting for Israel. But this man! Ugh!

    I heard a commentator on Arutz Sheva say this morning, that that man should be tried for treason; then executed; and then have his ashes spread over Gush Katif.

    What loathing and despite he is provoking! I am embarassed and ashamed to know that he is a Jew.

    (PlumBob, did you know that if the story in that link was not brought out in parliament in Israel, that the public would hardly hear about it. A radio station interviewed the writers of the book on the subject, but the main newspapers, who should be clamoring for an inquiry, are largely ignoring the story)
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-20-2005, 10:41 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    ZionGene,

    I found this interesting article tonight on WND. It "hints at" (to quote DtB ) a possible answer to a question you floated some time ago. The link to the entire article is:
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=44869
    Probe sought on Gaza evac
    Sharon accused of hatching plan to thwart criminal investigation

    Posted: June 19, 2005
    2:45 p.m. Eastern

    A Knesset member today requested Israel's attorney general probe claims made in a newly released book that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon introduced his plan to evacuate Jewish communities from Gaza and parts of the West Bank to divert public attention from criminal investigations that threatened his premiership last year, WND has learned.

    "I have sent a formal request letter to Israel's attorney general [Meni Mazuz] asking him to investigate the prime minister because of the revelations in the book that prove Sharon is corrupt. We know exactly who are the people involved in the scandal, what they did, so there needs to be an immediate investigation," National Union leader Uri Ariel told WND.
    Clearly at this late date there is little real value in wailing and gnashing one's teeth about "WHY" - but thought provoking, never the less.


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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Dear WLNF

    I will deal with your last answer first.

    I agree and am sure that a believer's comprehension of prophetic matters has nothing to do with one's position in Christ Jesus. Appropriating His work on the cross determines that completely, once and for all.

    I cannot remember if the point was hinted at in this thread, or if I read it somewhere else, but the claim was made that believers will have to clean up their acts by going through a degree of purging on this earth before they are fit to meet Christ. Therefore, they might have to go through the terrors leading up to the Gog invasion or whatever.

    When I hear folks make this point I wonder if they remember that even Peter backslid into racial prejudice and pride after he received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. Also Paul himself had to apologize for insulting the High Priest on one very public occasion, and he was meaner with John Mark than others were with him. If we had to be completely prepared for the rapture of the church based on our performance, none of us would enter the Pearly Gates

    As to the Gog invasion! The judgments following upon it are so extensive and worldwide, that if God intends to save believers at large from the Tribulation to come, then I do not see how the church can be here during that time. I can appreciate Lewisb's conclusion about Gog's invasion coming under the heading of one of the Revelation seals.

    And while we are on the subject of a possible Russia-Gog connection: I believe that the sudden halt in the fortunes of the EU will drive the Eastern European nations--who were warning up to the EU and the West up until last week--right back into the arms of Mother Russia. And they will be right in time to furnish the "Gomer and all his bands..." of Ezekiel 38:6. America will make it easy by all Her talk about Israel being in "occupied territories," and about "disengagement," but Russia, leading Iran a couple others will do the hands-on dirty work
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-20-2005, 09:35 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    ZG,

    Concerning your two outstanding issues- is the Rapture before or after Ez 38; and does one's attitude concerning prophesy affect his/her security with Christ?

    1) If you look back to the first few posts in this thread, lewisb reiterated his long-standing belief that the Gog invasion is, in his opinion, the 2nd seal of Revelation, and if you believe that the 21 judgements of Revelation are all part of the Tribulation, then the conclusion is drawn, if you're a pre-tribber, that the Gog invasion is after the Rapture. However, the original scenario posted in this thread concerned a possibility that the Gog invasion was not a Russian invasion at all, but rather part of a UN enforcement of the Israeli settlement withdrawal. In that case, it could occur before the Rapture. I haven't read all 1000+ posts, but I don't believe we have collectively reached a concensus on which countries, and under what scenario, constitute the Gog invasion force. I do believe however, that we agree that the key thing about the invasion is that the result of the invasion is God's direct intervention, in such a way that leaves no doubt who is doing it.

    2) This is just my opinion, but I've always felt that one's salvation does not depend on his/her belief in Biblical prophesy, the meaning of this term, as we use it on this board, referring to predictions of the future as foretold in the Bible. Our salvation depends on one's repentence and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Savior. That's really it, and that's really the simple part. It's the way we live out that faith that's hard. If our salvation depends on our attitude toward prophesy, then there are a whole bunch of Christians who are in real trouble, for a lot of Christians look at prophesy as just a bunch of baloney. Many just ignore it. They acknowledge it, but discount it as being irrelevant. Martin Luther for example. While prophesy instructs us about Jesus Christ (Rev 19:10) and assures us of the authenticity of the Bible, it's our belief in Christ and his forgiveness of our sins that is at the core of Christianity, and is the key to our salvation.

    My $.02

    WLNF

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Whenever I get “lost,” I go back to my spotlight, and begin scanning texts for guidelines.

    As it pertains to the question of the rapture and time lines in Revelation, I stumbled upon these connections. .

    The prime text relating to the rapture of the Church, is, in my opinion, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where it says::

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    Then I jumped to Revelation 11:11-12, where it definitely speaks of resurrection, and lo and behold the same word “cloud” jumped out at me.

    “And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    And to cap it all–-in my opinion–-Revelation 1:1, and Revelation 11:12 both use the term “Come up hither,” which is definitely a call to resurrection in Rev 11:12. Its use inclines me to believe that it is a call to another resurrection (which the Rapture of the Church certainly is) in Revelation 4:1, where John's location and perspective are used as a type of the resurrection, and removal, and glorification of the church
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-21-2005, 11:23 AM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    It seems to me that the two yet-outstanding questions related to this thread are these:

    Will the Church Of God, comprised of all believers who have born again by the Spirit of God, be in this world during the time of Gog's invasion against Israel?

    And:

    Does one's attitude toward these prophetic matters having any bearing on a believer's security in Christ?

    Players and scenarios leading to Gog's appearance have been put forth, but I do not think that anyone has ventured to say where the rapture of the Church fits into all this.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob: when you are firing live bullets into the floor we all feel an obligation to dance!

    OK a few comments. I am thrilled that DtB is looking forward to Christ's return..so am I! But I don't see how the uncertainty of date makes such a big difference. If that were so why do engaged couples pick an actual date for their marriage. In one sense the bride "starts to get ready" just before the wedding but that is outward appearance for the ceremony not inward character or love....if you get my point. Also while the notion of Leah and Rachel is an interesting one I don't see how that connects with a timeframe..other than the one this thread has focused on from the beginning, namely the timeframe of attempting to implement a Palestinian state bringing down the wrath of God.

    ZionGene: you may be correct about "come up hither" representing the Rapture but I suggest that is at the level of "plausible speculation" as opposed to firm prophecy. I don't know in what sense John himself claims to represent the church. Also the reference to 24 happens also to be the number of courses of priests who served in the Temple..there are other explanations. That is what is so good about this web site- you can throw out ideas and "as iron sharpens iron" we all benefit.

    The only connection with timeframe mentioned in the Bible that I have referenced before is the one in Isaiah to "within 65 years" after the birth of the miracle baby in chapter 7 verse 8. In Exodus God says "Israel is my firstborn son". If I were an Orthodox Jew studying the Tanach I would look for something very special to occur in 2013 (1948 + 65) If I were Messianic I would think that that date minus 7 years (ie about 2006 or 2007) would be especially important as the last week of Daniel's prophecy has yet to be played out. What is interesting with the 2006/2007 timeframe is that it just happens to be the last couple of years of the current president's term of office. He has declared that the Palestinian state will implemented on his watch. good luck Mr. Bush and Ms. Rice

    I hope that the Rapture occurs tonight if not sooner, but I will prepare to be here for the next few years...and yes I firmly expect us to run out of oil (check Royal Dutch thread) VERY SOON. Talk about interesting times ahead! WE NEED TO PREPARE TO GO THROUGH ADVERSITY, and then all be pleasantly surprised if we get raptured out ahead of the chaos that is coming.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by Don Brooks
    I think that on several occasions I've 'hinted' at a possible scenario as I have painted some 'Pictures' from the Old Testement... As I have stated before. I believe that He has kept things sufficiently ambigeous for a reason.. . We are required to be ready at all times . . .
    Yes, DtB, indeed you have hinted at some scenarios in the past - however this time I detect much more excitement and expectancy in your voice (uhh- fingers) in post #773. As I have said before, I do think that "the closer we get, the clearer the picture will be," therefore, it's interesting to watch as some folks seem to become less tentative and more sure, as time goes by.

    ZionGene, what a marvelous way to bring Revelation to the point, in just a few sentences. Your excellent wisdom is always appreciated.

    It's also extremely interesting to watch the dancing w/ each other by at least 2 disparate groups in this thread, as to the (possible) sequencing of the End of Days.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    The Point In Time of Taking Away Of The Church

    Unlike the prophetic books of The Old Testament, which speak principally to events among the Jewish People, the Book Of The Revelation addresses future events in the Church and in Israel-- and in the world too. It includes both the Time Of Jacob’s Trouble and Israel’s restoration; and the removal and glorification of the Church. It appears to me, that unlike many of the OT prophetic books, Revelation definitely follows a time line. And the one which I would like to follow, goes up to where John is taken up into heaven


    First of all, Rev 1:1 speaks of “the things which must shortly come to pass,” beyond the point when John was writing—approximately 100AD.

    Then in Revelation 1:19, the Risen Christ says to John, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter…” and because verse 20 speaks of then existing churches, I believe that all of chapters two thru three tell of the state of the churches, local and continuing up to the beginning of The Day Of The Lord.

    The first event of The Day Of The Lord will be the withdrawal of Christ’s ambassadors in the Church, represented in the call to John to “Come up hither” in Revelation 4:1, AND the presence of the 24 elders (represented by two perfected groups—12 plus12-- of Jews and Gentiles) in the one Body, in heaven, confirms the fact to me that nobody who knew Christ in the groups represented in chapters two and three, will be around to experience the seals, and trumpets, and bowls, and vials of judgments etc. For this reason, I do not believe that anyone now present on the earth—even if he or she is a church member--will be able to identify who the antichrist will be, since that information was a bit down the road even in John’s experience, well beyond his taking away in Revelation 4


    Revelation 4:1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.”


    John then sees all that follows (Revelation 5-22) from his location in heaven. He is not down here when he sees these visions, as was the case with many other prophets of the Old Testament. That tells me very much

    In my opinion, the time line continues further on through the Book Of Revelation, but what interests me is the point where John is raptured.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob... I think that on several occasions I've 'hinted' at a possible scenario as I have painted some 'Pictures' from the Old Testement... Rember Leah and Rachel ??? Just a picture - just a hint. As I have stated before. I believe that He has kept things sufficiently ambigeous for a reason. Face it! If we all knew for sure that His Return to Planet Earth was on the 26th September, 2007... Then... we would all wait untill the 24/25 September, 2007 to get ready! That is Human Nature or should I say Old Nature!

    We are required to be ready at all times a) to share the Hope that is within us, b) to be expecting and ready for His Return!

    These are exciting times to be alive my friend!

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