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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by Lay it to Heart
    1:10^91 = 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000.
    No way, Jose! There are a couple hundred nations now and perhaps several thousand since God gave Ezekiel the prophecy. To randomly guess any nation would produce a 1 in 10,000 or better chance.
    I'm really glad you brought this up! Didn't that article talk about 8 prophesies? The 8th root of 1x10^91 is 2.37x10^11. Awfully slim chances of even getting ONE right. And even at your 1:10,000, to get all 8 would be hitting 1:1x10^32. Better chance at powerball, huh?

    Originally posted by lewishb
    They will at that moment decend upon Israel in a plan to sieze all the worlds oil. At first the arabs will welcome their help but then the arabs will realise Russias true intentions.
    This has always been my best guess, too - and still makes the most sense to me, from a totally geo-political stand point.
    Last edited by PlumBob; 06-25-2005, 10:43 PM.

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  • lewisb
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    To ""turn you around""............... as in eze 38:4.........imho...........
    Russia is at least pretending to go twords democracy since 1991..... the turning around i forsee is that when the russians believe its the right time they will stop pretending to be good and turn back to the agressive russian
    empire we all remember too well. They will at that moment decend upon Israel in a plan to sieze all the worlds oil. At first the arabs will welcome their help but then the arabs will realise Russias true intentions. this leads to all the invaders fighting each other .....eze 38:21

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob, "extract" would be the better translation of the verb here in Ezekiel 38, since the action effected with hooks in jaws, does not refer to the preservation of the items being taken out. On the other hand, "extricate" implies saving something or someone from destruction in most ordinary cases, and in most of the biblical references too, where that form of the verb is used. But both extract and extricate mean taking out, and not bringing or sending in

    However, in every case in the scriptures where that same exact form of the verb is found, it carries the sense of "bringing out" by God. And bringing Gog out and not in, is what God's hooks do in Ezekiel 38:4. The verb usage never speaks of sending, or pulling something in

    Yet one could say, that in using the same Hebrew term in the first instances, it does indeed imply saving from destruction, where extricate might suffice. But even then, pulling something out is the meaning. Even the "draw out" of a sword of Ezekiel 21:3 could be translated as "bring out," which is the obvious sense of all the other 8 texts.

    The point is that the hooks of Ezekiel 38:4 bring out Gog and his cohorts, and not pull them in AND WHY DO I EMPHASIZE THIS FACT?
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 11:37 PM.

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  • Sandylion
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Does this "bringing forth" or "bringing out" have any likeness to "raising up" or "creating out of something"?

    What if the bringing out, or bringing forth is similar to the drawing out of Abraham Ur of Chaldees - lifting out of one place or thing, and creating something new out of it.

    I am wondering if the bringing forth isn't speaking of (and I truly hate to say it out in case of bringing great calamity down upon myself) a raising up of a people, out of a people, such as the Islamic religious nations.

    What if God is saying He would bring forth the Islamic nations to come against His people, Israel, so that He would one day be hallowed among the heathen?

    This is just a hunch, but I keep feeling this might be just as good an exlanation as any I've heard so far. Better even than the Russian theory.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    1:10^91 = 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000.
    No way, Jose! There are a couple hundred nations now and perhaps several thousand since God gave Ezekiel the prophecy. To randomly guess any nation would produce a 1 in 10,000 or better chance.


    It's spoil Gog is after and who likes spoil more than America? Can you take a hint? Here's one. Two days ago the Supreme Court upheld eminent domain for private development.
    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44985 If it's ok to steal from Americans it's ok to steal from any other nation.

    Does 'bring out' mean to bring Gog out of Israel or to bring Gog out for war?

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    And considering that hooks are said to be employed by God, I suppose that the rougher “extricate” could describe the action. God is not escorting these folks out, but treating them as dentist does to a tooth—and worse. If hooks are employed, the bringing out is worse than simple extricating. . .
    You have brought up a very interesting point, ZionGene. I have always thought of extricate as a "military-ish" word - a miliatry rescue. "The diplomats were extricated by the Marines, prior to the fall of the embassy." And I would normally associate extract as something done against some resistance - as in extracting a tooth, or extracting the truth from the reluctant witness.

    As I look at my dictionary just now (The World Book Dictionary, 1985), I see something I wouldn't have considered - to wit:
    Extricate (v) - 1) to set free (from entanglements, difficulties, embarrassing situations, or the like); to release: He extricated the kitten from the net. 2) to set free from a state of combination, as in the liberation of a gas or of heat for example, during a chemical process (such as combustion.)
    Extract (v) - 1) to draw out, usually with some effort; to extract a tooth. - (and then quite a number of other uses, having to do with "extracting money, extracting a confession, extracting oil from olives," etc.)

    As I have reread your last post, I can't see that there is a whole lot of difference in the usage of the first 6 passages - the bringing out is done with reasonably little resistance on the part of the ones being brought out. More along the lines of a rescue, or bringing out so as to give a blessing, (Isa 65:9) The last example, however, (Ezek 38:4) clearly is "rougher" and done against some resistance by the ones being brought out - extracted, if you will. God is indeed dragging them out by their beards, amongst much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    HSB, the verb which is a part of the third phrase in Ezekiel 38:4, is best transliterated by me as “vu-ho-zey-tee.” It is in the Hebrew Hiphil, which says, “I will cause you to come out,” or “will cause you to be brought out,” and/or any of the other subtil meanings as are illustrated in the texts below: it has the English concept of causing something to happen--an exit in this case. It is found in only nine places in the Torah or Old Testament in this first person singular form, all of which I post below. And the earliest one stands most significantly.

    Incidentally, you say that "this phrase precedes the list of accomplices, Persia, Cush, Put..." Actually in verse 4, the word is used relative to the whole gang of them, beginning with Gog; and even if it immediately preceded that list, I do not see how it changes anything.

    Exodus 6:6 "Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:"

    Exodus 7:4 "But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments."

    Exodus 7:5 "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

    Isaiah 65:9 "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there."

    Ezekiel 11:9 "And I will bring you out of the midst thereof, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and will execute judgments among you."

    Ezekiel 20:34 "And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out."

    Ezekiel 21:3 "And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked."

    Ezekiel 38:4 "And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:"



    Even if “I will extricate,” or, " will cause to be extricated” is rejected, then “draw forth” in Ezekiel 21:3; or “bring you out” of the Exodus reference, could be fitted in Ezekiel 38:4 without much change in the meaning of the action. And considering that hooks are said to be employed by God, I suppose that the rougher “extricate” could describe the action. God is not escorting these folks out, but treating them as dentist does to a tooth, and and worse: an extraction of sorts, using forcepts with hooks on them. Also, “draw out” is the minor use of the term in the context of all the rest, and it has to be interpreted by the others; but even if it stood alone, it does not change anything: it is the same vu-ho-zey-tee
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 10:02 PM.

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  • Sandylion
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    I have re-read through Ezekiel 38 once again, and it occurs to me that perhaps there could be a time break between verse 7 and 8. Like God is telling Gog what He is going to do, and then He tells Gog why He is going to do it.

    First He outlines what He is going to do:

    Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts [of armour, even] a great company [with] bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
    Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
    Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: [and] many people with thee.
    Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

    **************break**************

    Now He explains how it's going to all play out:

    After many days thou shalt be visited (by whom?): in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
    Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
    Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, [that] at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
    And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
    To take a spoil (the land), and to take a prey (the people); to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
    Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
    Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know [it]?
    And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
    And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
    Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?
    And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, [that] my fury shall come up in my face.
    For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    ZionGene: this is an excellent direction for the thread..solid Biblical focus. I am literally going out the door to airport so must run. However I understand from the third phrase you identified (#3318) that the meaning is to "draw forth (fetch forth) as opposed to extricate. I mention this because this phrase precedes the list of accomplices Persia, Cush, Put. I want to reflect on the notion of the "hook" and what it accomplishes. As I understand your point you are saying Gog arrives and then in attempting to leave God basically says to him "not so fast". On the other hand I have always understood the hook to in effect drag Gog into the scene. In either sense God can certainly act for his own Name's sake!! in a powerful way. I look forward to the comments of others, including the Hebrew "experts". Shalom PS It is fun being a WEDG addict but my wife is literally at the door heading for the car..

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    The point has arrived in this discussion to rely only on what the Hebrew text
    alone says about the direction of pulling of the "hooks," which God is said to attach to the jaws of Gog. The pertinent questions are, “Does God pull the invaders into Israel, or does he hook then up after they are in Israel, and yank them out.” Are they pulled into Israel unwittingly, or could it be with the kind of glee which Moslems traditionally employ when attacking Jews?

    This is where we take a closer look at Ezekiel 38:4. The point is an important one, because the question has been raised as to whether Islam’s traditional enmity could be the causa bellum, or "cause for war" in this case, and whether that formulation might be dishonest or unbiblical.

    At the beginning of the action the verse opens with “And I will turn you back.” The next English phrase contained in three Hebrew words say, “And I will put hooks in your jaws.” The next English phrase contained in two Hebrew words says “And I will bring you out (extricate you)

    Before each verb in each of these phrases there is what is known as a “Vav consecutive,” translated as “and,” in English. The “ands” underline the time sequence of the action: there are other devices in Hebrew to indicate the sense of simultaneous or concurrent actions, to which we may attach the sense of “while” in English, or employ the participial “ing” ending and sense of verbs. But here, first, second, third time sequences are emphasized.

    Here again is the order

    And I will turn thee back (or reverse you)
    And I will put hooks in thy jaws
    And I will bring you out (extricate you)

    The text does not say anywhere that God’s hook will be used to drag Gog in toward Israel: the hook is used to violently pull Gog out: the hooks are attached after the forceful reversal of direction of Gog. Nor does it say that the hook is some kind of high-smelling bait. Also the reason for going in is explained in the way that is outlined in verses 11 and 12 of Ezekiel 38, which is probably the belligerent historic expression and animosity of Arabs--combined with their desire to plunder Israel--put into action. They are not forced or pulled in, in any unusual way

    Only after Gog’s direction of travel is reversed out from Israel ( could be by eruptions in nature, or angelic intervention--or whatever ( the text does not say) does God attach His “hooks” to the Jaws, and make the exit very painful. He does not allow Gog to retreat in peace and good order.

    I would appreciate it if this interpretation of the first part of Ezekiel 38:4 can be proven to be incorrect. I will pass it before a relative of mine who is attending university in Israel. In the meantime, would one or two of you seminary students out there, please check my interpretaion of the timing of events, in the light of the force of the vav consecutives in this case, with your language professor?
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-25-2005, 07:30 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    WendyJ: I will be out your way later this very day!! We arrive in Vancouver tonight and then early next week will be travelling to Hornby Island for the long weekend, spending time with 2 daughters/soninlaw and 2 grandkids. I will wave in your direction from the ferry!

    SandyLion: thanks for your followup. I hope that the author was right and that the Muslim nations get the judgment that God will be dumping out on somebody shortly. My point about Gog was that he comes in reluctantly (hooks in the jaws) not screaming Jihad. The evil plan is IMHO targetted at the resources primarily (spoil and prey) once he is "on the ground". At any rate I will let this issue go. Hard to argue with Kinsella's 10 ^91 certainty about Russia anyway! PS Think Ill dig out some old records (can't believe how primitive that record player technology seems against the new iPods/CDs etc) and sing along with PlumBob's friends PS AT least if the electricity fails we could spin the records manually and use a grammaphone hookup (if anybody remembers what they are)

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  • wendyj
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    There are other prophecies that speak of the demise of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. In order to invent a historical claim to the land, the Palestinians have fancied themselves to be the spiritual descendents of the Caananites and the Philistines. Though there is no physical connection, the name "Palestine" is indeed derived from "Philistine." And one of the 5 Philistine cities, Gaza, is now the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority. There are several Bible prophecies that speak of the "Philistines," written after the Philistines of old had faded from prominence.

    In the context of an oracle against Syria and Damascus, (Zechariah 9:1-8) foretelling that it will be "consumed with fire," Zechariah also refers to the "Philistines" (Palestinians). They will "see it" (the destruction of their ally Syria by Israel) and "writhe in agony." Their "hopes will wither" and "the king will perish from Gaza". I believe that may be referring to Arafat. Furthermore, God says, "I will cut off the pride of the Philistines." To conclude, the Lord says, "I will defend my house against marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch." (Zechariah 9:8 NIV)

    That's one reason why I believe the first 8 verses of Zechariah 9, which describe what happens to Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians, is talking about end-times events as well as what happened during the time of Alexander the Great. That last verse can only be talking about end-times events, for certainly oppressors have overrun the Jewish people many times since this was written. Furthermore, Zechariah's prophecy then goes on to describe events that will happen at both the first and second coming of the Messiah Jesus.

    Ezekiel also saw a future judgment against the Philistines, and the reasons that are cited for their punishment sound very much like the attitudes of today's Palestinians: "This is what the Lord God says: 'Because the Philistines acted in vengeance and took revenge with malice in their hearts, and with ancient hostility sought to destroy Judah, therefore this is what the Lord God says: I am about to stretch out my hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Kerethites and destroy those remaining along the coast. I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.'" (Ezekiel 25:15-17)

    Zephaniah also talks about judgment on the Philistines: "Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, The nation of the Cherethites! The word of the LORD is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; And I will destroy you, so that there will be no inhabitant." (Zephaniah 2:5 NASB) It is curious that God uses the term "Canaan," to describe the land. That seems to indicate that just as the Canaanites were inhabiting the land promised to Israel, so too these future Philistines would have possession of land which does not belong to them.

    In the same context, God addresses what may be modern-day Jordan for their participation in the anti-Israel campaigns: ""I have heard the insults of Moab and the taunts of the Ammonites, who insulted my people and made threats against their land." (Zephaniah 2:8 NIV) Isaiah concurs with this, saying that in conjunction with the annihilation of Damascus, "The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid." (Isaiah 17:2 NIV)

    The identity of Ammon today is easy to ascertain, for "Amman" is the capital of Jordan. Remember that land east of the Jordan River was allocated to 2 1/2 tribes of Israel? But today that part of the "East Bank" does not belong to Israel, but to Jordan. In this prophecy, the Lord wonders aloud why this situation has persisted: 'Concerning the Ammonites: This is what the LORD says: "Has Israel no sons? Has she no heirs? Why then has Molech taken possession of Gad? Why do his people live in its towns? But the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will sound the battle cry against Rabbah of the Ammonites; it will become a mound of ruins, and its surrounding villages will be set on fire. Then Israel will drive out those who drove her out," says the LORD.' (Jeremiah 49:1-2 NIV) . It was allocated to the tribe of Gad. The Lord is asking why the "Ammonites" live there instead of Israelis, and then proclaims that He will rectify that in the days to come. Incidently, "Rabbah" has become the modern city that is now the capital of Jordan, Amman.

    In another place, Zechariah also speaks of a future conflagration in Lebanon, and massive environmental damage done in the area of northern Jordan, southern Syria, and the Golan Heights: "Open your doors, O Lebanon, so that fire may devour your cedars! Wail, O pine tree, for the cedar has fallen; the stately trees are ruined! Wail, oaks of Bashan; the dense forest has been cut down! Listen to the wail of the shepherds; their rich pastures are destroyed! Listen to the roar of the lions; the lush thicket of the Jordan is ruined!" (Zechariah 11:1-3 NIV) Could this also be foretelling the war that is on the horizon? Foreign Minister David Levy recently echoed this prophecy when he thundered from the Knesset floor "Lebanon will burn!"

    As a result of this war, and especially because of the "removal" of Damascus from the face of the earth, the international community will rise up in outrage against Israel. "Oh, the uproar and raging of many peoples who roar like the roaring of the seas, and oh the rumbling of nations who rush on like the rumbling of mighty waters!" (Isaiah 17:12) Israel will undergo withering criticism from the United Nations, and will be viewed harshly. The national status of Israel will become emaciated: "When that day comes, Jacob's glory will diminish, from being fat he will grow lean." (Isaiah 17:4) It is very likely that overt anti-semitism will once again explode all over the globe.

    Though Israel will be severely censured by the international community, their physical situation should be vastly improved after the war. Here's a perspective to consider... what if, after all these events, Israel ends up with even more land, and no malicious neighbors to harass them anymore? Would they not see that as a sign that God is intervening on their behalf, despite their lack of faith in His ability to deliver them? There are prophecies in Ezekiel that seem to indicate this may be one of God's purposes for this war. Compare these two prophecies, from chapters 28 and 38. The first talks of Israel living in safety after all of their malicious neighbors have been punished and eliminated as a source of painful affliction to Israel. The second one is from the famous "Gog" prophecy, describing the condition of Israel later on when Gog and his "hordes" decide to invade Israel.

    "'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.' This is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.'" (Ezekiel 28:24-26 NIV)

    "'Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land. (Ezekiel 38:7-9 NIV)

    Notice that they both use the phrase "live in safety" to describe Israel. The first prophecy says that after they have been regathered to the land, they will "live in safety" as the result of God's subsequent punishment of their neighbors. The second prophecy says "living in safety" is the condition at the time of Gog's invasion. Because they do not now "live in safety" and continually suffer contempt and harassment from their neighbors, something has to happen to change that before the Ezekiel 38 situation can occur. Perhaps the war between Israel and Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Palestinians is the "punishment" that would eliminate the continual hostility from Israel's neighbors? If so, then the phrase saying that Israel had "recovered from war" in the Ezekiel 38 prophecy might be referring to the war with Syria.

    In presenting these Scriptures for your consideration, I'm not certain that all of them necessarily refer to the situation just ahead. While the timing these events is uncertain to us, we know that every word that God has spoken will be certainly take place. We have His sworn testimony to that effect! 'The Lord of Hosts has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.'" (Isaiah 14:24)

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  • wendyj
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Please dont shoot me for posting such a long article --I got it in a link from Real Dutch.
    I just find it really interesting . It contains elements of the Syria war threat, settlers in the mtns, philistines-palestinians etc written in 2000. I have printed it so I can desipher it and study it close to my Bible. Here goes:

    War on the Horizon

    Bob Westbrook, Editor of Trumpet Sounds.
    May 24, 2000

    The situation in Lebanon portends that Israel may soon be involved in another war. Now that Israel has withdrawn from the buffer zone in south Lebanon, the situation may quickly escalate to military confrontation with Syria. There are a number of Bible prophecies that may be speaking of the situation just ahead. It's important to have an understanding of these because fulfilled prophecy is one of the most powerful proofs of the veracity of the Bible. God has revealed the significant details of His plan for human history before they happen. This prophecy regarding the destruction of Damascus could occur very very soon, and we will be able to point to it as yet another evidence that the Bible is absolutely reliable, and that the things that God has spoken will soon take place.

    Here is an outline of how I understand it:

    The war will include Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Palestinians.
    Syria - Isaiah 17:1, Zechariah 9:1 Zechariah 11:2-3, Jeremiah 49:23-25
    Lebanon - Zechariah 11:1 Zechariah 9:2-4
    "Palestine" - Isaiah 17:3 Zechariah 9:5 Zephaniah 2:5 Ezekiel 25:15-17 Isaiah 14:31-32
    Jordan - Isaiah 17:2 (Aroer) Zephaniah 2:8-9 (Ammon)
    Damascus will be utterly annihilated. Isaiah 17:1 Jeremiah 49:23-27 The extent of the destructions hints that nuclear weapons may be involved; how else would an entire modern city "cease to be a city"?
    The Palestinians will join the Syrians and foolishly make a grab for territory. They will see the obliteration of their ally Damascus and "writhe in anguish." "The king will perish from Gaza" - Gaza is the place where Arafat's headquarters are. Zechariah 9:1,5 "I will eliminate the pride of the Philistines." Zechariah 9:6
    Lebanon, Syria, and perhaps Jordan will burn. Zechariah 11:1-3
    As a result of Israel's destruction of Damascus, their national status will become emaciated because of intense international condemnation and outrage. Isaiah 17:4,12
    These circumstances will compel Israel to begin looking to the Lord. Isaiah 17:7
    Possibly, as a result of this war, Israel will obtain large portions of territory from Lebanon, Syria and Jordan (land that had been promised to them by God.) Zechariah 10:9-10 Jeremiah 49:1-2 Isaiah 54:2-3 Obadiah 1:19-20
    Isaiah 17 is the critical passage, for it unequivocally declares a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled: "Damascus will cease to be a city, and will become a heap of ruins." Damascus is said to be the oldest continually inhabited city in the world, first mentioned in the Bible during the time of Abraham. It is now the capital of Syria, the implacable enemy of Israel. Syria is the occupying power in Lebanon, and is a primary sponsor (along with Iran) of anti-Israel terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Amal.

    Hezbollah has indicated it will not stop its attacks on Israel, because their vowed purpose is the elimination of Israel. In a new tactic to further this aim, Hezbollah is now equipping, training, and mobilizing Palestinians from the Lebanese "refugee camps." Because Syria implicitly encourages this, and will refuse to restrain Hezbollah, even after many warnings by Israel, Israel will act decisively to protect the people in its northern towns. Both Lebanon and Syria will become involved in a war against Israel.

    Zechariah 9:1-2 is another key prophecy regarding the fate of Syria and Lebanon. "The burden of the word of the LORD is against the land of Hadrach, with Damascus as its resting place (for the eyes of men, especially of all the tribes of Israel, are toward the LORD) and Hamath also, which borders on it; Tyre and Sidon, though they are very wise." (NASB) Hadrach refers to the nation of Syria; Hamath and Damascus are cities in it. Tyre and Sidon are in Lebanon, and are the locations of some of the primary Palestinian camps, from which terrorists are being trained by Hezbollah. Notice the details of Zechariah's prophecy - the "burden" (ominous, woeful message) is against "the land" (Syria) and will "rest" (fall with the fullest and final force) on Damascus. And when this happens, it will gather the attention of all of the world, and especially of Israel. That's "when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the Lord."

    Here is more about Damascus, from the prophet Jeremiah: 'Concerning Damascus: "Hamath and Arpad are dismayed, for they have heard bad news. They are disheartened, troubled like the restless sea. Damascus has become feeble, she has turned to flee and panic has gripped her; anguish and pain have seized her, pain like that of a woman in labor. Why has the city of renown not been abandoned, the town in which I delight?'" (Jeremiah 49:23-25 NIV) This seems to coincide with Isaiah's and Zechariah's prophecy regarding Damascus. Hamath and Arpad are other cities in Syria - could it be the "bad news" they are hearing is the obliteration of Damascus? The degree of their distress at hearing the news is powerfully portrayed by Jeremiah. They "are convulsed with anxiety" (NJB) and Damascus herself is "aghast" and gripped with panic.

    Regarding the last sentence - "the town in which I delight" is obviously Jerusalem. According to Jeremiah, it "had not been abandoned" - implying that given the events he saw prophetically might have expected people to flee, but they did not. The Amplified Bible puts it this way: "How [remarkable that] the renowned city is not deserted, the city of my joy!" This is all conjecture, but consider this: one thing that would prompt Israel to use weapons of mass destruction (nuclear) against Damascus would be if they were responding in kind to the use of weapons of mass destruction (biological and/or chemical) by the Syrians. Perhaps that is what Jeremiah saw, and thus would have expected to see people abandoning Jerusalem, except for the fact that Israel put a stop to it by bombing Damascus?

    Jeremiah continues with: "Therefore her (Damascus') young men shall fall in her streets, and all her soldiers shall be silenced in that day, says Yahweh of Hosts." (Jeremiah 49:26) Obviously, the Syrian army will never again be a threat to Israel. God Himself gets very personally involved in the action in the next verse, when He says, "I will set fire to the walls of Damascus."

    Isaiah 17:3 says that the reign, the rule, the royal power, the sovereignty will "disappear" from Damascus. This also implies more than just a defeat by a foreign power. For a capital city of a nation to no longer rule over that nation, a catastrophic defeat must take place. In the wake of a defeat of this magnitude, Israel would very likely step in and and take possession of portions of the defeated nations where their troops have invaded, though this is not their initial intention or motivation.

    I had puzzled over part of verse 3 in Isaiah 17, which is speaking of the destruction of Damascus. Verse 3 didn't make sense to me at first: "The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damascus." God would be judging Syria, but what would "Ephraim" have to do with that? Was He going to be dealing with Israel also, I thought? No, it didn't seem to fit. Then I realized after some research that the "hill country of Ephraim" is the area of the now known as the "West Bank," where Arafat wants to establish His Palestinian state.

    Whether or not a Palestinian state is in existence before the war with Syria, the outcome will be the same for them. Even (or especially) if they have not achieved their desire of statehood on Israel's land at that point, they will jump at the opportunity to join Syria. They will see it as their chance to seize the land that Israel did not cede to them. And so this part of verse 3 is speaking of a situation in the very near future - that God will crush the "fortifications" of the Palestinians after they foolishly join the Syrians, presumably in a grab for Jerusalem. "Ephraim will be stripped of its defenses." (NJB)

    CONT...

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  • Sandylion
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    The Rast article indicates that the primary rationale for Gog invading Israel as outlined in Ezekiel is to "wipe out" the Jews. That is simply totally incorrect. It is not in the Bible! Am I the only one bothered by this??
    With all due respect, HSB, I do see something in Ezekiel that indicates that Gog has "evil thoughts" toward the people of Israel.

    In verse 4, God says - "And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth" - so God is going to turn him around, put a hook in his jaw and bring him and all his cohorts "forth".

    Then in verses 10-12 it says - "It shall also come to pass, [that] at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

    And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates

    To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land"

    What I see going on here is that God will bring Gog and his company forth and Gog will be a guard for his company. But after many days, he will be visited, and he will begin to think his own evil thoughts to destroy the people of the land of Israel and take spoil.

    This is not a sudden thing. God is showing us that He had this planned and coordinated a long time ago when He "brought forth" Gog and his company. Then after many days (even centuries later), Gog will think evil to come against an unprotected people.

    In otherwords, I do see there to be scriptural evidence that this could be Islamic nations with their evil intent to destroy the Jews from the face of the earth.

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  • wendyj
    replied
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by PlumBob
    I've already closed the link, but Signs was recorded on an album named "The Sounds of Canada" or some such. 1971, I think. Just a few days ago Ahhhh, I remember those times as if they were yesterday!
    I'd like to know where evry one is from. Me Vancouver Island, BC, Canada. While you on the east coast will probably see tsumanii, we on the wet coast will see earthquake.

    Looks like our minority Liberal govt (liberal in every sense and corrupt) was not pulled down by our Conservatives (who were asleep) so we can expect samesex marriage this summer, also I hear Canada joined the gang against Israel in the disengagement. Rife for judgement!!!!--makes me sick.

    There is no knowledge in our land on our traditions in Christ. Our state religion is Tollerance--and that would be for anything other than bigoted Real Christianity. Our idol in the west is "materialism", and our mantra --"man is the measure of all things". "As in the days of Noah so it will be in the days of the coming of the SON OF MAN" --oh , oh what about Noah ? He was saved from judgement (RAPTURE?). Our nations are like Israel was in the days of Jeramiah, Ezekiel--when judgement hit. Ever since I was a little girl I would get up some mornings and look out my window and talk to Jesus and ask "is this the day your going to come and get me" Is still do it---does any one else do that?

    I am sure curious to know who Gog is ---but like in Daniel when the vision is sealed till the end, I wonder if maybe we wont know who Gog is until the mystery is unsealed by God.

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