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Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    I want to finish something which I began in this thread, which had to do with the names of God. My conclusion is that to continue with this is too much of an offence to Jews, who have a certain reverence for God’s name, although we who have come to know their Yeshua, do not even call Him by the exact English translation “Joshua,”in which we speak, but by the more
    Greek sounding of Yesus, or Jesus. God has become “local” to everybody–so to speak–through Jesus Christ. I wish to explain my process, and finish here.

    The statement below is the first one relative to this subject, which I posted at WEDG on this thread.

    [I]An idea just came to me!
    In certain circles where I worshiped when I first came to America nearly forty years ago, they would refer to God as "The Great Heart Fixer And Mind Regulator." I thought that that was real neat, and that Jesus would be proud to wear it.
    After having her delivered from death by an Angel of the Lord, it was our sister Hagar who gave God the nickname of "Thou God seest me." Then it was Hannah, another woman who was grateful to God for what he did to her son, who first added "The Lord Of Hosts," to the other mighty names of God, and it interesting that the Lord Himself used it afterwards in impressing his power upon the thinking of recalcitrant folks.
    Now I have an idea, HSB, and PlumBob, and you folks in Gush Katif, and in Gaza, and in Judaea: do you good folks think that God would object if we poor humans would dare to give Him a new nickname of "The Hope Of The Settlers." I wonder how could this thought reach to the ears of someone in Israel who would properly and fully coin it in Hebrew. I dare to say that
    doing so would lift the morale of the Settlers famously.

    Then HSB said this in one of his posts.

    ZionGene: interesting article in JPost about the history of the settlements:....oh, by the way the Hebrew word for the settlers is in fact "mitnahlim".

    Then this was my response to HSB.

    Thank you HSB very much for digging up the word "mitnahlim" as being nearer to "settlers," than my "shakanim' which actually means dwellers as I explained. HSB, if that word is in the biblical text, it is probably translated by another word in English, and the way that I could find out for sure, is if I were to see it written in Hebrew capitals: could you have your source to at
    least tell how it is written right-to-left in Hebrew letters, so that I might have a go at it--that would save me much effort. In the meantime, I am will try to translate the English "mitnahlim" into Hebrew characters, and see how close I can get. Most of all, I want to see if and where it occurs in the bible in the Hebrew text. I appreciate your help in this HSB, and I am reminded
    that there is nothing which any us of know that someone did not teach us, and that it all began when Adam repeated what he heard God speak.

    Then a friend of one of us who lives in Israel answered us in this way

    The problem with the analysis you sent me is that it relies on the English version of the Bible which is not the original. The Hebrew word for settlers comes from the same word used in the book of Joshua for inheritance or territory. So we really do have a name already. AS for G-d’’s name, I think that is too holy to play with. G-d gave us His names in the Bible and I think we should stick to them.

    After getting this mild rebuke from a friend, I still searched the Hebrew text looking for the root of the word which the friend from Israel only hinted at, but I could not find it. Then, nearly two weeks ago, I sent the following e-mail to a nephew of mine who studies and lives in Israel.

    Dear Stephen
    It has been a long time since we communicated last. I had hoped to hear
    from you about my last inquiry. What has been going on in your life since then? I have another one for you which I hope is easier to resolve. Reading right to left, what, in English names, are the Hebrew letters in the Hebrew word for "settlers." Is it mem-tav-nun-lamed.mem, mitnahlim? If this is not
    right, please correct it for me.
    Uncle Gene

    Then I get this response from my nephew just this morning

    Hi Uncle Eugene,
    I just noticed your e-mail, which I had not seen until this point, so I apologize for not responding. I have good news -- I can answer your question concerning the word "settler." In Hebrew, the spelling is mem-tav-nun-chet-lamed. That is singular. For plural, it is mem-tav-nun-chet-lamed-yod-mem. I hope this helps you. How are things otherwise? Everything is fine with me. Thanks for asking!

    When I compare what HSB found in the Jerusalem Post, and what Stephen said, with what the friend in Israel said, the word for settler is indeed (pronounced as near as possible in English syllables) mit-nack-lim. The root is na-chal. Writing that from right to left in Hebrew letters, the root would be nun-chet-lamed. Using that root to name a group would be (still writing from right to left), mem-tav-nun-chet-lamed-yod-mem.

    (I hope I am not boring you folks too much with this stuff)

    The “nun-chet-lamed” set in the middle of the word is from the root word meaning “to take as a possession.” It is found in various forms such as in: Ex 23:30 says; “By llittle and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.” And in Isaiah 57:13; “ When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain.” And in Numbers 18:23; 34:18 also. Then Joshua chapter 19 is filled with all forms of the word. Ezek 47:13-14; “Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. 14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance”.
    The tav prefix seems to be an indication of hithpael, which in Hebrew tense, means to take possession of something to oneself, either land or individuals, and to do it energetically. (See Num 33:54; Num 32:18; 34:13; Is 14:2.) The “m” sounding letter is also put in front of the 3-letter root verb root to give a naming to the verb (in the participial “ing” sense in English)-–“a settling,” or “the ones doing the settling.” The suffix at the end of the main
    three letter nun-chet-lamed root, gives the sense of plurality with the “eem’ sound, as in Elo-him, for example, where the combination of divine persons is emphasized.
    Now we begin to understand how provocative the name “settlers” is in Israel. It does not only mean folks who dwell in a certain place, but it carries the sense of “the acquiring ones” as was done in the time of Joshua. Not only would the ungodly among the Israeli of today not like them, but the Palestinians would particularly want to oppose them. These are not people who only want to live in one place and be content with their space, but who are always seeking to expand their territories, as they believe that God would have them do--they are God-energized. I guess that God would be to them a El Hatkveh Mitnachlim The “ch” sound in the first syllable before the one at the end of the word, is only slightly different from what HSB found at The Jerusalem Post. But only an ear trained to Hebrew may be able to detect the difference. But it is in the text of scripture where the subtleties may be appreciated

    Now we know what it really really means to be "a settler" in Israel today


    • Has If Really Really Sunk In?

      I heard Jimmy DeYoung's comments at about the establishment of the Sanhedrin, and its pronouncement against the government's plans to uproot Jews from Gaza, Judaea and Samaria. I read this before, but its implication is really beginning to sink down into my mind

      Do you really really realize what the Sanhedrin has declared?

      It said that the proposed action of the government is


      Not just "bad," or "evil," or inconvenient--but has been cancelled
      by a higher authority.

      What a powerful explosive pronouncement that is? Have you ever heard of any such declaration, which was aimed at the decision of an established government in the recorded history of man, without the government either leaving town, or chasing the perpetrators out of town? Either the Sanhedrin in Israel has suddenly been given authority of which we
      are not aware, or it is ursurping it.

      That statement by the Sanhedrin heralds a new struggle within Israel--I can
      assure you!


      "By whose authority," they should be asking, "do you The Sanhedrin Of Israel do this thing?" I dare to say that more than one set of eyebrows are being raised in Washington and elsewhere


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Hello, everyone. Yippee, my wife is home safe and sound! Pretty tired, tho.

        Originally posted by HSB
        So PLEASE help me PlumBob and others like ZionGene and Don the Baptist (I love that little handle) and the rest of you dear folks reading this discussion thread... Lay out your best scenarios. . .
        As I've said several times, I'm simply not a prophesy scholar of any kind whatsoever. So what ever I might dream up just comes purely from my imagination.

        What if -
        There were to be a major rift in the political structure in Israel. IDF literally pulled the Knesset members out of the building, and in the process declared their loyalty to the Sanhedrin. Instantly, the disengagement plan is toast. It doesn't matter one twit whether 2/3 of the Israelis are secular or not - the Army is in control, so the public will just have to get a life.

        All if not most of the nations of the world are going to wail and gnash their teeth, including the US. But EACH government, including the US and the individual European nations, and the broader EU is going to evaluate the newly-come-to-power Israeli 'quasi-government' in terms of "what can it do for me?"

        Should the US not squawk too loudly, that would be viewed in Moslem circles as another indication that the US was composed of Zionist pigs. One of the now known to be non-existent sleeper-cells in the US suddenly awakens, and sets off dirty bombs in let's say Los Angeles, Chicago, and you pick one more - Miami.

        As if no one had ever thought of it before, the US lets loose of one single cruise missile, with one single low-yield tactical nuke warhead - at Mecca.

        Syria might dig up 5 square miles of the Bekaa valley, and astonishingly, find a few hundred artillery shells filled with Sarin gas. Iran might find that it had a couple of extra nuclear warheads - prototypes no doubt - that it wanted to test. Press the red button, and they're off.

        The Sanhedrin, protecting the Promised Land responds in kind - boom goes Damascus.

        Whose friend is the US now? Disengagement? Can't even remember what that was all about! Like the Sanhedrin or not, the US is in bed w/ them. Locked arm-in-arm against the rest of the world. What happens next? I don’t know. The Rapture comes, and poof, the government of the US is left to (I won’t name names) - probably not friendly to Israel. The Rapture doesn’t come yet, and there’s 25 more years of wrangling away. Don’t know.

        Is this probable - who knows? Is it possible? Yes, it’s possible. The scenario seems to be a moving target anymore. Now you see it - now you don’t.

        Now, HSB, my friend, I’m going to take off the Nomex suit and just sit here. I too invite scenarios from others. I can’t evaluate yours or mine critically in light of prophesy - I’m not qualified to do that. But the situation continues to be so fluid, that I think perhaps the only thing we can do is evaluate every little new piece of news, and see how/where it might fit into the BIG PICTURE.

        Perhaps I’ll make some comments regarding other recent posts later.

        Regarding God's marvelous sense of Biology, RE the Golgi Body
        The Golgi body is a membranous structure within the cytoplasm of cells involved with the further modification of carbohydrates, lipids and proteins. It is composed of a series of flattened, parallel chambers - cisternae - close to the cell nucleus and usually, rough endoplasmic reticulum. It is polarized.
        The function of Golgi apparatus is two-fold: First modification of lipids and proteins; Second storage and packaging of materials that will be exported from the cell. The Golgi apparatus is often called the "shipping department" of the cell.

        Camillo Golgi discovered these structures in 1898. . .many biologists did not believe that they really existed. The invention of the electron microscope showed that the Golgi apparatus were actually there. Golgi received a Nobel prize in 1906, not for the discovery of Golgi apparatus, but for his work on the cellular structure of the nervous system.
        Last edited by PlumBob; 03-10-2005, 05:11 PM.


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          PlumBob: you are like a pinch of salt to this recipe (all that slogging in the salt mines must have rubbed off on you)

          An interesteing if somewhat terrifying view of the future. This IDF takeover (coup!) would that occur before or after the evacuations from gaza? Also I am puzzled why the army would side with the Sanhedrin at this point when at least 2/3 of the IDF are probably secular Jews. In my scenario it takes something far more earthshattering (literally) to get them to pledge loyalty to the new Sanhedrin. I still think the evacuations will go ahead (but that Gaza might just be delayed to join the others in the west bank) As you know I think the implementation of the new arab state becomes the hook to get Gog in there. What is the hook for you? HSB


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Well now PlumBob, Israel certainly now has two centers of authority! And I am quite sure that many in the military are taking the new reality slowly in account. And if any thing will provoke a civil war, this is it.

            This much is certain. If the expulsion of Jews in Judaea and Samaria gets under way, the Sanhedrin will become very vocal indeed! And I do not think that Mr Sharon will dare move against it: that would most assuredly throw the fat in the fire


            • HALLEUJAH! Here Is A Treat To Warm Your Heart

              All you who fear God; are Lovers of Zion; and glory in the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

              (Now get youir color printers ready.)

              Click on to Then under the heading of "Technology," click on "Israel's survivor flower boasts of...."

              Or you may want to click directly to the printable friendly version of the article at the url below


              I was listening to a description of this flower today on Israel National Radio, and could you guess when this so-called Resurrection Flower blooms, after appearing to be quite dead for so long a time?


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                ZionGene, I saw a little bitty headline on that flower yesterday. Thanks for posting the whole thing. Marvelous!

                I dunno, HSB, actually the IDF ousting the Kenesset was a pure afterthought. What I'm really kind of leaning toward is a major escalation of violence against Israel, the palestinians thinking that they can continue to kick them (Israel), while they've got them down, and maybe kill them off in the process, because it appears the rest of the world won't stand up and care, at this point.

                I well remember the cold war days, when we would speculate about this Russian leader, or that one, and come back around to saying something like "... yeah, but after all, that one's hard core KGB, so don't look for him to be fluffy...". Sharon is an old warrior. He may be temporarily distracted by some vision of 'glory', or 'honor', or some other mental process that we don't understand, but unless he is really loco, it's hard to believe that the old war-dog isn't eating away at him in there. I wouldn't be surprised to hear him say - "Sorry folks, I've had a belly full. You can all go take a hike." Look at Jerico just today, for instance.

                That would certainly leave his friends (the few international ones he has left) having to craft a new strategy - either stand w/ him, or go against him. In the face of massively increased violence, tho, the US would be very hard pressed to criticize Sharon.

                I'm getting majorly conflicting signals out of the ME. One arab leader says they want to bend over backward to accommodate Israel, another says that it's their way (specifically Egypt) or the highway. I think the moderate arabs would rather switch than fight - they are only worried about keeping their own little monarchies and presidencies in power. But they aren't willing to really step on the Palestinians necks. So the PA, Hamas, and all the other factions are left to run wild.

                If the violence continues to rachet up, I think Sharon will eventually walk away and retaliate, hard.

                Where does that leave the end times? Still right there. We've wound up at the exact same place. Rapture me now, or rapture me later.

                Don-the-Baptist, good to see ya back.

                Yes, Lewis, what are you thinking?


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  As far as timing and scenarios go, it does seem to me that they would be easier to arrive at, if and when a view of the rebuilding of the Temple becomes clearer. Jesus said that "When ye see the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel stand in the holy place, then know...." He seems to be saying that the ability of end-time believers to more accurately assess time frames will be enhanced then, and only then. And in order for the sacrifice and oblation to cease, it appears to me that the Temple must have been standing, and in use, for a considerably long period of time in order for its function to be considered common practice. And to be made to cease

                  The question then follows as to when the Temple might be rebuilt, and how long its construction might take. I can not see it standing less than ten years or so, if the Antichrist is to cause the sacrifice and oblation to "cease". And continuing along this same line: many believers claim that all of Revelation 4 thru to Christ's establishment of His kingdom on this earth will take no more than 7 years. And if that is accurate, the beginning of the reconstuction of the Temple will not start during this time of Jacob's Trouble, or Daniel's Seventieh Week--but well before then. It will take some time to build the Temple. Herod's took forty years. A clue may be had from the time that it took to build Zerubbabel's Temple, since it was a rushed job

                  It appears that the preliminary question at this point should be, "What political developments (such as Palestinian state; peace agreements; local wars etc) would enhance or even call for, or permit, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple." Unless that process can be clearly seen, it does appear that the rest can only be vaguely comprehended

                  When it comes to guessing as to when shall all these things be, I believe that that will be easier to do if the schedule for the rebuilding of the Temple is revealed to somebody


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    G'morning, everyone....

                    I notice w/ more than a little interest, the thread about US military middle east duty might include Israel. Oh my.

                    ZG, I've heard it mentioned that the full Temple wouldn't necessarily have to be built in order to restart Temple worship, and sacrifices.

                    Also, what constitutes a "Temple"? Paul Harvey advertises General Steel Buildings all the time. And indeed, this is essentially the second week of March - Best Buy (the electronics, etc. store) says they are putting up a store here, that will be open by the end of September. They're doing the dirt work now. I've seen them put together Builder's Squares in less than 12 months. If they want it done, I'd be willing to bet it could get done pronto.

                    Next, I'd like to talk for a bit about the term "hook in the jaw". What does that mean to you guys? I have visions of a gaff hook, pulling an especially large fish into the boat.


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      I think it was Jerry Golden who reported some time ago that he has seen blocks of marble, stored and ready to be used to build the Temple...



                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Here they are PlumBob

                        I quicky scanned the bible with my program for the words "jaw" "jaws," and "hook" hooks." This should get us started

                         Isaiah 30:28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.

                        2 Kings 19:28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

                        Ezekiel 29:4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

                        Ezekiel 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

                        Amos 4:2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks.

                        Hosea 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

                        (From what I can see from the texts, it does appear as if the "hook" or "hooks" applied by the Lord, are those implements which He violently attached to somebody to jerk them around in another direction, or in the reverse direction. As it relates to the attack of Ezekiel 38, which Gog is to mount against Israel, maybe the question should be "What will be the bait" that will cause Gog to attack. We seem to be confusing hook and bait. The Lord applies the hook after the attacker goes for the bait)


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Hi, Janet....

                          Yes, stones are already cut. I've seen a picture of the cornerstone - I can't find the link right now, but there was a pix on the web some time ago - they had it on a flatbed truck, and took it up to the temple mount - as close as they could get it - symbolically taking it up to set it in place.

                          Well, this isn't the pix I was looking for, but maybe this link will work. The caption is "Pouring water on the cornerstone."

                          Last edited by PlumBob; 03-11-2005, 01:37 PM.


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Janet and PlumBob: the big stone on the flatbed truck belongs to the TempleMount Faithful under leadership of Gershom Solomon. They have been trying for years to get a cornerstone up on Temple Mount to lickstart the rebuilding of the Temple.

                            To ZG: I have also heard that a fullblown Temple is not necessary for sacrifice-only an altar and Tabernacle tent that literally could be erected some afternoon.

                            Regarding Hook I will restate briefly my little scenario. There is NO invasion or attack by Gog. The Hebrew simply says that Gog "shows up" or "deploys" on the mountains of Israel by means of "fast flight". Over the years translators have ASSUMED that this means an invasion and have even indicated it would be on horseback!! They might have just as easily said on the back of "cranes" because that is how the same word in translated elsewhere in the Bible. The point is that Gog arrives in fast flight (sounds like jet transports to me) and deploys on the mountains of Israel (west bank). I have suggested that this deployment is related to the implementation of an Israeli/Palestinian peace deal. The Israelis trust the Americans and the Palestinians would insist on at least token representation of troops from Muslim countries. The real object of desire is the strategic position related to Middle East Oil (remember the man on Israel National Radio outlining the 5 secret US military bases in Israel were there to protect US "strategic interests in the area" and Tamar said "you mean oil" and he agreed!!!!

                            If this scenario is correct don't look for huge European contribution- it would be Unwelcome by the US. There is a fight going on right now in NATO over the future..will it be largely an EU force OR American. European interests in the Middle East and American interests in the same area are on a collision course!!

                            The article link to ArmyTimes that was just posted advising of potential US deployment to Israel is simply INCREDIBLE!!!!! If a large force moves into the region LOOK OUT, earthquakes are close behind IMHO.
                            Last edited by HSB; 03-11-2005, 01:40 PM.


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              HSB, see link I added to my previous post for a pix of cornerstone.

                              Shoot, I'll just repeat it here


                              So, Sport, you didn't articulate what the "Hook in the Jaw" represents in your scenario - at least you didn't articulate that here.

                              The very clear feeling I get from Ezek is that Gog/Magog might otherwise be distracted doing, or to do, something else, and God simply put a bit in their mouth, turned their heads and says "No, guys, go to Israel."

                              If you're thinking that the "hook" is the financial power of the EU, then aren't you putting the hook in significantly after the deployment?
                              Last edited by PlumBob; 03-11-2005, 01:46 PM.


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                PlumBob: since you are from Texas you can draw and shoot faster than I can. No sooner did I post a comment about the flatbed stone than I see you have already updated your comment with a picture. Do they have internet connections in the saltmines or are you taking a long weekend??