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  • lewisb
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    It has not been mentioned that if the Gog invasion happens soon with our army dispersed throughout Iraq they would be overrun by the gog and persian armies...... America would be seriously weakened for a long time to come.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    There is one outcome which I believe nearly everyone who visits this thread would like to see, and that is that God negates the plan of that man to throw Jewish residents out of Gaza, Gush Katif, and enclaves in Judaea and Samaria.

    I want to propose something to someone out there, who has visited but not posted in this thread. Would you please open another thread calling for a special time of prayer and fasting for the residents mentioned above. I believe that it would be a good idea for it to run for forty days, beginning the first of July. This brings the end of it to approximately the time when that man propose to evict the Jewish residents.

    I would like to see this done and be a success, but I would run the risk of carnal pride if I push it myself. Among other things, I will to be as quiet as possible, from the beginning of July, to the middle of August this year. Shalom
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-27-2005, 05:48 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Mrs PB is a very wise person

    If we see a vast horde of Russians on horseback and/or Muslims screaming Jihad sweep into Israel we will in all probability recognize that Gog has arrived. However, for the reason for the hook I will offer the following: I accept something far less than 1:1 X 10^3 odds. I will not mortgage the house. I recognize there are strongly held alternative viewpoints of the nature of the "hook" as well as just about everything else in the Ezekiel passage. But here goes...


    Israel is in crisis with the removal of settlers from Gaza, let alone the west bank. I believe they will be incapable of pulling this off without fracturing the country and military. Yet the "world" (quartet/octet/UN etc) are all convinced that the show MUST go on and that there will be a Palestinian state coming in the next short while. Sharon may have believed that evacuating the Gaza strip (which is in fact tough to defend) and a few settlements in northern Samaria would be met with appreciation by the PA. In fact it seems almost the converse. Terror strikes are being attempted almost daily. Fortunately the Israeli security services are so very good that almost all of these suicide bombers are caught before they strike. What looks to the world like a "lull" in hostilities is not that at all, just a string of Israeli successes. The people in Israel in the know are fed up, but so is the "world" with the pace of disengagement. So now the "hook" to bring Gog and associates "forth" from the nations, even reluctantly.

    I cannot see how America would stand back and let a Russian/Chinese/Muslim etc force take over Israel. Even as "peacekeepers" it won't be allowed. So I fear that America will be asked to lead this venture (or all other potential leaders vetoed by Israel) Reluctantly they agree and for the sake of "balance" optics if none other get broad participation from other nations (except Egypt, Syria and Jordan who have been actual belligerents in the recent wars. It would not surprise me still if there was some "arrangement" with Iran to bring them on side..perhaps the iron clad commitment to implement a Palestinian state. I know I could be wrong on this point and that IDF airforce could be headed towards Iran as I write this.

    So we have a hook that brings out even a reluctant America. But an "evil plan" gets hatched. Once in position in Israel the US has "on the ground" domination of most of the ME. A huge airlift flows in from the giant bases in the Caucasus states of Georgia and Azerbajan (ancient MaGog) led bya President George from the Land of George and son of George...or if you prefer Gog from the land of Gog, son of Gog. Sort of like a giant game of Risk where control of the Middle East oil supplies, not to mention Caspian sea etc is critical. This force is thoroughly destroyed by a giant earthquake, demonstrating that God is still active in the Land and has other plans.

    After a short interim period further judgment falls on America (the "coastlands" both East and West) It may be the La Palma mountain slide into the Atlantic (do you know that the documentary indicated that the slide along a 30km front had ALREADY started and got STOPPED. I don't know maybe a terrorist nuke might help it along, particularly if it took out the whole East coast of the USA. Something similar (seismic/volcanic etc) devastates the west coast. Suddenly the world is left with a two-party system... Europe and Asia.

    Consider all of this above to be wild fantasy. All I have done is connect some dots in a plausible scenario. But what is REALLY important about this discussion is how Israel gets treated. If the US persists in pressuring and then supporting a west bank state creation I fear we as a civilization are doomed, simple as that.

    So... I will invest more shekels in the "godless horde" theory and hope that this is the correct one. It may not matter much if the leadership is Russian or Muslim if indeed we sit it out. God is quite capable of destroying the aggressor even if the best that gets done is some "protest" from our side of the ocean. What I dread is a lot of naive young men and women being dispatched (perhaps even being invited in) from here to Israel and never leaving.

    I am not trying to "push" or "spin" this thing. First I pray it NEVER HAPPENS. But if events begin to unfold and AMERICAN troops get deployed (even with thank yous all round and brass bands playing) then look out.

    PB you were very gracious in your 1:1 X 10^3. You and I both know that if it was announced tonight that a huge asteroid was headed towards earth but the chance of collision was only 1 in a thousand, none of us would sell our homes but I suspect we would at least want to MONITOR the developments until we were absolutely certain the thing had passed harmlessly, just in case. Wonder what we would do if the odds were say 1 chance in 4 of direct hit?

    We will all know soon enough how the mystery unfolds. Perhaps the thread on WEDG will still be active.
    Last edited by HSB; 06-27-2005, 12:56 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    LiTH, I concur with your last post in full. I find it comforting to know that I can participate in these intellectual games on THIS side of the rapture, without worrying about how I might fare on the OTHER side of the rapture

    HSB, I just can't envision why, if indeed Gog's reason for going into Israel is to either take or control spoil, he (Gog) would need to be dragged in. I do understand that this is the way you think that verse could be translated, but for the life of me, given the nature of the human race, about which we would all agree, I don't think that interpretation is the correct one in this instance. Rather, I think what will happen will be a Godless hoard, coming to the conclusion that they are invincible in every way (and if not, very willing to pay whatever price it will take) making an incursion into Israel for the express purpose of either taking spoil away, or controling it so that no one else can have it.

    Later-

    LOL, Mrs. PlumBob says we all need to go to a tractor pull or something! We have too much idle time on our hands!
    Last edited by PlumBob; 06-26-2005, 09:32 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    LayItToHeart: Oh to be a fly on the wall when the Saudis and others talk about what they really need/want in the Middle East. I think your analogies are very interesting. I also believe that one can control important resources by denying them to others as much as hording them for oneself. Time will tell what some of the real behind the scenes discussions will yield.

    "I recommend that we do not sell one Jew for all the oil in the world." wow what a strong declaration of ethics. In early May I was at the Yad Vashem ceremony in Jerusalem. The man who presented the wreath on behalf of the Righteous Among the Nations is a dear friend of ours. His father died at Dachau during WW2. I heard this son, John, talking to a group of young Jewish students a while ago. he finished his story by saying "I do not want to overstate what was done for the Jewish people..only two Jews were helped by my parents" A woman immediately stood up in the audience and said "Do not talk like that..if you save one Jew you have saved the world" And then she added "What more could your father possibly have given than his very life??" I think there was not a dry eye in the place.
    Last edited by HSB; 06-26-2005, 07:57 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Lay-it-to-Heart... you have such a wonderful way of painting pictures... Add to your comments that Israel is the Apple of His Eye, and you might begin to think that we are poking Him in the Eye in the way that we have been dealing with Israel. It won't be long before He wipes the irritant [us] from His Eye, and that will be swift, it will not be pretty nor will it be delayed much longer!

    I'm trying to get some assistance on understanding the "Hook-in-the-Jaw" and its implication before responding to ZionGene. This is one every interesting Chat Roon... and there is a whole lot more yet to be revealed!

    Blessings to all of you!!!
    Last edited by Don Brooks; 06-26-2005, 11:02 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by HSB
    It would not surprise me to see the government fall before the Gaza evacuations occur if the terrorist strikes continue. Many people in Israel are really wondering exactly what the evacuation achieves in a positive way when there is so much grief inside the country and no let up in violence from the enemy.
    Remember when Arafat had a chance to gain a lot under Barak's proposal. He opted to reject it and turn to violence. Perhaps the same thing will happen now. I believe PA does not want peace and if there were any chance that an Israeli retreat/withdrawal would work, the PA will find a way of circumventing it.

    Concerning Gog's desire for spoil, it is not necessary to take spoil in order to gain spoil. The plot is old and has been repeated. Do you remember the James Bond movie Goldfinger? What was the plot? Take out Fort Knox and as a result Goldfinger's wealth would greatly increase without taking a single ounce of gold out of the fort. Now will that work in the Mideast? The spoil to gain from invading Israel may be achieved through many other means other than actually taking anything from the land. A new oil route secured by Mideast "peace" would be valuable. A non-nuclear Iran in exchange for a final solution would be another. If the Arab oil flows from a new roadmap, that would be worth a lot of spoil as well. Basically, today we can sell Jews for oil, peace, pride, power, nuclear disarmament and more. I recommend that we do not sell one Jew for all the oil in the world.

    We tell Israel we love her and will respect her in the morning. We claim we love Israel but we act as though we our married to many other women. We wake up in the morning and catch the thief taking half of her house and tell her to negotiate with the thief. The thief strikes her, drawing blood, and we say she should show restraint. We carry a gun but tell her she doesn't need to. We have shot thieves before but how dare she even think of doing the same. She goes to the kitchen and we say she is occupying the thief's place. She locks a door and we say she is violating international law. If she wants to join in on the war against crime, she is going to have to cooperate. She calls the police who say she is intolerant and needs to withdraw from part of the house if she wants to get along with the thief. The thief says he wants to run her out of the house and into the sea and we give the thief money. The thief destroys her pictures and scrapbook and we won't even discuss it. We claim that the thief and his friends have rights to share her bedroom as well as she does. Do we love Israel? America treats Israel like a cheap one-night stand.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    I am surprised that there is an insistance in holding on to what has been proven to be wrong. It would be more honest to refer to some authority on the original text to refute a position at this point, rather than referring to "seems to me."

    HSB, some questions you raise in your last post should be put to Ezekiel. Now, "It seems to me" that you are wilfully avoiding the sense of the text.

    Incidentally, I do not expect that the hooks will be such as are made by a blacksmith. And if you want to be picky, the hooking and bringing out, forces Gog toward the exit sign.

    I am simply saying that the hook reference can bring Gog and his group "forth" or "out" of the nations as opposed to out of Israel. (Basically the comment that LayItToHeart raised) I am not "wilfully avoiding the sense of the text", nor am I holding on to "what has been proven to be wrong". When I say "seems to me" I am simply giving my own thoughts on the matter.
    I am interested in reading the different comments of people as I learn. It is unfortunate if this sounds "picky". It was not intended that way.

    PlumBob: I found your last comments of clarification and insight helpful. PS The articles you linked a few posts ago all indicate big things are just around the corner! It would not surprise me to see the government fall before the Gaza evacuations occur if the terrorist strikes continue. Many people in Israel are really wondering exactly what the evacuation achieves in a positive way when there is so much grief inside the country and no let up in violence from the enemy.
    Last edited by HSB; 06-26-2005, 04:24 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    The action (whether it be jerky or tearing) is whatever can be best described by putting hooks in one's jaws. We may take our choice. Trivializing the situation will not change the truth

    But, HSB, the text does not say that the hooks are employed to bring Gog into Israel. It is flatly contrary to the text when you say "seems to me that the hooks might work to drag the folks into Israel." Obviously, it does seem to you: but it is not what the word of God through the Prophet Ezekiel says. I am surprised that there is an insistance in holding on to what has been proven to be wrong. It would be more honest to refer to some authority on the original text to refute a position at this point, rather than referring to "seems to me."

    HSB, some questions you raise in your last post should be put to Ezekiel. Now, "It seems to me" that you are wilfully avoiding the sense of the text.

    Incidentally, I do not expect that the hooks will be such as are made by a blacksmith. And if you want to be picky, the hooking and bringing out, forces Gog toward the exit sign, which results in a stampede of self destruction
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-26-2005, 04:04 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by HSB
    Help me understand "God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel ".
    Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. The hooks could also portend simply a sudden but very affirmative jerking of the head around, to cause the army to simply cease what it was doing - without regard to actually "leaving".
    Seems to me the hook might work to draw the folks into Israel in the same way a hook works with fish. Fish sees juicy worm and goes after the bait, turns out its the fish that pays the price of involvement.
    Yes, fish sees jucy worm, and takes a bite. But it is after the bite of worm that the hook begins to be effective, not before. The jucy worm here is the lust of the eye - the desire to get something for free - loot, spoil. The insatiable thirst to have what someone else has - the grass is always greener in the other guy's pasture.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Help me understand "God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel ". The point of the story is they all end up dead on the Mountains of Israel. In what sense then would they need to get hooked "out" of Israel..they never leave, do they. Or is there some form of revolving door where they arrive/leave/come back again. Sorry but I don;'t follow this (am quite prepared to confirm I am simply dull to understanding what seems so clear to others) Seems to me the hook might work to draw the folks into Israel in the same way a hook works with fish. Fish sees juicy worm and goes after the bait, turns out its the fish that pays the price of involvement. Or another exoplanation is that God simply drags Gog against his will into Israel.Am I missing something here??

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Wendyj - thank you very much for posting that article War on the Horizon, in posts #823 and 824. I doubt that you were with us at that point, but many pages ago I asked about Damascas, and whether its destruction was already accomplished in the past. The article opens new horizons on that subject.

    Yes, ZionGene, I think I see your point, regarding the last couple or three posts. I've gone back, like Sandi, and reread Ezek 38 & 39 this morning.

    In order for me to agree w/ your logic I have to put the "pause" between verse 6 and verse 7. 38:1-6 are describing how God will jerk the Gog army out of Israel. Not so gently, it appears. Then after catching a breath, 38:7-ff, does a bit of a time shift, and starts telling the story of how Gog got there in the first place. The reasons, enticements, and motives for going into Israel in the first place.

    If the concept of a sequence-break is valid, as in "verse 6 - skip in time - verse 7", then there is no reason to believe that verses 7-ff may not also include the same concept - Which leads me to:

    Verse 9 stands alone - a statement.
    Verses 10-12 stand alone - a statement of WHY Gog invades.
    Verse 13 quite frankly, I don't understand
    Verses 14-16 stand alone - another restatement of the same chunk of time as above
    Verses 17-ff - a story of the result of God's fury against the Gog army.

    In summary, I'm seeing this not as a continuous time-line from Verse 1 to the end, but rather God (through Ezekiel) stating, and then restating, and then restating again, things about the same singular chunk of time - specifically the point in time that Gog decides that it would be a good idea, and a profitable exercise, to go into Israel.

    HSB, I've purposefully avoided using the word 'Invade" for your benefit But without having the knowledge of the original language, I can only impute that this is a foray into Israel for the purpose of gaining booty - despoiling, looting, if you will.

    ZionGene and all, please excuse me if this has been patently clear to everyone but me but I'm in absolutely new intellectual territory here. Also, ZionGene, I don't want you to interrupt the flow of thoughts, but I will be very interested to see some comment on the import of verse 13.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    After outlining the overall sequence of the action in Ezekiel 38:4--including when the hooking of the jaws takes place, and in what direction the hooks pull--God goes into detail, beginning at verse 7, looking at things from a human perspective.

    Here is the action supported by various verbs

    GOG makes preparation in verse 7. In verse 8 he comes into the land of Israel. In verse he comes and descends like a storm. In verse 10 he thinks an evil thought. In verse 11-12 Gog determines to "go up" to the land of unwalled villages, to take spoil, and "to turn they hand upon" the people that are gathered out of many nations.

    Verse 17 indicates that in all these human appointments, that it is God's indirect, relatively mild control, which "brings thee (Gog)" against a regathered Israel.

    At no place in the text does it say or hint that it is the "hook" action that brings out Gog from among the nations. But the text definitely says in the summary paragraph of verse 4, that God uses hooks to drag Gog out of Israel.

    And the summary says that if there is any dragging with "hooks," it is out of Israel, and not from anywhere else.

    I am assuming that all of us are willing to be subject to the substance of the text in this case
    Last edited by ZionGene; 06-26-2005, 10:35 AM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    wow- short time on an airplane and 9 posts go by

    Thank you Layittoheart for the simple little question that I was struggling with: You said "Does 'bring out' mean to bring Gog out of Israel or to bring Gog out for war?" It seems to me when I read the passage that God will bring forth Gog and his associates from the nations, not from Israel. This suggests that the Sovereign Lord of history is like a master conductor who nods to the woodwinds when it is their time to contribute, allowing them their moment of attention. There are two parallel courses sweeping through history...one is the notion that we get to control everything, even thump Israel if we feel like it. The other is that God is accomplishing His will in His own time in His own ways. Sometimes these two threads are in harmony when we act to do God's good pleasure. In that case we are blessed. On the other hand to defy God's plan brings down judgment.

    This thread has identified a range of plausible explanations for Gog's arrival in Israel. In my spirit I feel a deep sense of foreboding that things are going to start to move quickly (and yes even unexpectedly) Some major force is going to arrive in Israel and get smashed by God. Some think it will be an invasion on horseback, others like myself a quick deployment by aircraft. But in any event God will use this action to make a point...for His own name's sake. PRAY THAT WE HAVE NO PART IN THIS MUSICAL SCORE that is about to unfold.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    I will reiterate that we haven't yet seen even a glimpse of what the disengagement will look like a month from now.
    'Orange Wave' Upsets Sharon, Bush and Police 01:46 Jun 26, '05
    Opposition to the government's evacuation plan has sent tremors in the establishment. Sharon has ordered police to clear the roads, the police fear loss of control, and Bush is losing support.
    http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=84557
    Islamic Jihad Challenges Israel Amid Growing Anarchy 01:03 Jun 26, '05
    Islamic Jihad terror leaders declared they will end the "calm" and strike Tel Aviv if Israel tries to capture or kill them. Meanwhile, Arabs continued shooting each other in Jenin.
    http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=84555
    Is the USA Really Israel's Ally?




    With friends like them, we don't need enemies. Sorry, but facts prove the myth a lie. The United States of America is not a friend of Israel.
    http://israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=5244
    To quote LiTH, "No Way, Jose." This thing will surprise us all.

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