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Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob, you have been pretty diligent at it yourself! What a sleuth of information you have come up with! I tell you what, the prophetic world is being well served by people like you through this fine Board.

    By the way, are you folks tuned in to Dr. McGee at www.ttb.org as he goes through the Book Of Joel? If you are not, you are missing some rich stuff about the Day Of the Lord, and the Day of Christ, etc. He impressed me when he said that Joel was the first to use the term "The Day Of The Lord, " and thereby set the pace for later writing prophets. You folks may want to go back through the archives where Mr.McGee starts at the beginning of the book

    Plumbob, it hurts to see Israel being tossed through and fro as she tries to please everybody except God, but there is another perspective about this whole business, which has occured to me in the last tweny-four hours.

    Given the fact (it is obvious) that the present leadership of Israel does not take God into account in its decision-making, then, if the pattern of God's dealings with Israel in the past is any indicator, maybe it is God's will for Israel to be under the thumb of a gentile nation at this time. And when you come to think of it: America is presently the most gentle of the gentiles, and since Israel is not listening to what God said and has to say, maybe he will force Israel to listen to what George has to say--Gog or no Gog!

    The fact of the matter is, that a spiritually careless Israel was ordered by God through the prophet Jeremiah--among others--to submit to the control and domination of Nebuchadnezzar. Furthermore, I have noticed that since that time, that whenever God promoted a gentile nation to first place, that He always brought Israel under its control. That seems to be a pattern which He has ordained, which tells me that I need to stop wringing my hands: that is simply the way it will be until...! That may be His will for Israel at this point in time.

    Comment


    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Confusion, PlumBob! Confusion!

      The word of God cannot be broken, and it says something about "confusion" in the third verse of the thirtieth chapter of Isaiah, which results whenever Israel looks to, or depends on any nation for direction, sustenance, or help.

      Isaiah 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: 2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt! 3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your
      confusion
      .


      That is what we are all witnessing, and feeling to a certain extent. And there is much more to come.

      Comment


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Originally posted by ZionGene
        there is another perspective about this whole business, which has occured to me in the last tweny-four hours. . . .maybe it is God's will for Israel to be under the thumb of a gentile nation at this time.

        . . .Nebuchadnezzar. Furthermore, I have noticed that since that time, that whenever God promoted a gentile nation to first place, that He always brought Israel under its control. That seems to be a pattern which He has ordained, which tells me that I need to stop wringing my hands: that is simply the way it will be until...! That may be His will for Israel at this point in time.
        Are you saying that God "protects" Israel, even in their folly? And that God extends "protection" to Israel by putting them under the domination of another nation that will not let them stray so far away that they might become completely annihilated?

        ZionGene, that is really HEAVY. I think you are assuredly right on target.

        Yes, let's stop wringing our hands. I don't want to admit to being confused, after being so gently admonished - I really do appreciate that, my friend - but I guess after coming to the realization that Israel is probably actually being (actively) protected as we speak, that I'm going to have to consider how we should be praying for her (Israel).... Hummmmm

        Gotta go to bed. Salt mine tomorrow - ughhh..

        Comment


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          Originally posted by PlumBob
          Hello All.....

          HSB, and everybody else, over the past day or two I’ve really been feeling somewhat “unsettled” about this whole thing. So I thought I’d jot down a few observations - my opinions only...
          So you are "unsettled" PlumBob. What a choice of words. A wonderful illustration of our thought level exercise versus the physical reality of Jews getting "unsettled".

          I have delightful pictures in mind of you trudging off to the "salt mines" in your "nomex flame retardant suit".

          Seriously though, things are certainly getting more complex with all the dodging and weaving going on over in the Middle East. I for one however will "hold the course" set in the very first post. I am not "wringing hands" over the developments in Israel. PlumBob, none of the link topics that you listed surprise me at all! I forecast a long time before March 4th the potential for civil war in Israel. I have believed all along that is why it will require outsiders to push the peace deal along. Couple that with the inability of Abbas to control the terrorists (assuming he even wants to), the top folks in USA and EU all know that as well. There is nothing new here, merely the actual outworking of what we have been talking about for the last few months. So here is my take on things:

          The protest movement in Israel will get more vocal and aggitated but in the end will be UNSUCCESSFUL. That is because the majority of Israelis are not Orthodox or Messianic Jews who believe in the literal truth of the Scriptures. There needs to be some form of deal. The random bombings etc etc etc cannot go on for ever. "Enough of blood and tears" said Peres years ago.

          Given the split in the country there will be a major push develop to get outsiders involved. Now you know I have believed all along that this will drag (hook) America directly into the fray...initially to separate the protagonists, but also to evict the Jewish settlers from at least the West Bank communities (Mountains of Israel) so that a peace deal can proceed and the arabs can get their "condiguous state". Everybody sees the need to get to that "other side of the river" but they are looking for a place to ford!!! Outside involvement is necessary. If it is American it will also cut the EU off at the knees in terms of their increasingly proactive foreign policy and interest in the Middle East.

          I think the rest of the arab world wants things to settle down a bit as well. They are apprehensive about democracy spreading too far across the region. Look for them to give assurances to Israel that a decent settlement involving the west bank will be enough, and that normal relations will be restored. So the contest shakes out as follows. On one side virtually the ENTIRE world exerting economic pressure on Israel to comply, and the terrorists continuing to bomb innocent civilians. Add to this over half the population in Israel that is fed up with the whole mess and is, IMHO, willing to cut the deal with Abbas that Barak offered Arafat years ago (the entire west bank). On the other hand you have the scattered settlements and support from Orthodox Jews and some Christians based on literal faith in ancient texts written thousands of years ago. This group has the solid international support of the Marshall Islands in Micronesia and... can't think of anyone else!!! Oh come to think of it they do have a "Daddy" who will get involved. This Father carries a VERY BIG STICK and is about to use it, for His own name's sake. The Scriptures are clear that everybody will come against Jerusalem. What we are debating is the timing of that. I for one think that Gog/Magog will be the second seal, not Armageddon yet. But when the dust clears on this next geopolitical machination I forecast the following: America will get dragged in with a token international coalition to implement what clearly nobody else can do..separate the Jews from the arabs and set up an independent Palestinian state that is both corrupt and incompetent. You know the way that scenario plays out. OUCH!
          Tell me PlumBob and others. IF the arab world and international pressure were able to rein in the terror groups to stop the violence over there do you not think folks would give up the west bank in a minute as a fair trade!!
          The people that are calling for a referendum better be careful. What happens if a majority of Israel actually approves a settlement with the arabs as Sharon and others are proposing..it is a very dangerous move to put all your Easter eggs in the basket of public opinion as if that mattered a hoot in the divine scheme of things. Keeping the mountains of Israel is right, not because a majority of Israel might be convinced to vote that way on a ballot, but rather because God Himself has decreed it.
          If I were a gambling man I would bet on America squeezing past Europe to be first in line to "help out" over there. They will be cheered on by the larger arab world and a majority of Israelis who are fed up and tired.
          When the path of the security wall was recently redrawn it effectively cut off almost all Jewsih settlements other than Gush Etzion and Maale Adumin close to Jerusalem. This will be balanced by some land swap somewhere so that the effective solution will be the return of all lands captured in 1967. A large international military force will be despatched to implement this deal and provide "peace and security" to everyone. That's not the way the story will end however. The earth will shake when Father shows up.
          If you folks at WEDG don't believe what I have laid out above, come up with something better! What would that be? Referendum/election returns a government that decides to thumb their noses at the arabs and the world and keep the settlements? coup? civil war leading to what?
          World Pride Day celebrations are slated for Jerusalem this summer. These are held every 5 years (last one in Rome in 2000) Gays plan to arrive in the multiple thousands for their parade in the very city God chose for Himself. What a mockery! Time is running out folks!

          OK I'll go even further. I have been closely following the postings by Herb at Fulfilledprophecy.com about developments in Europe. I believe he is on to something big. Europe is ready to fast track to superpower status. A key date will be January 1st, 2007 when the 7 year budget gets approved and Solana (or whoever is in his position) gets confirmed as the most powerful man in Europe. Personally I think this all is tied in with the first seal (white horse)of Rev 6, followed in close succession by the second seal (red horse) destruction of an army on the mountains of Israel (BUT THE END IS NOT YET!) then economic chaos in the world, and pandemic wildfire as seals/horses three and four. Look then for the Prince out of EU to take firm control of things. Oh he will have a pedigree to match any contender to the throne of David. Books like the DaVinci code are setting all that up beautifully.

          So what happens to Gaza this summer?? Beats me! I don't have any feelings about whether it actually will get uprooted as planned, or whether an election/referendum will slow things down. It would not surprise me to see this issue clumped in with a larger more comprehensive settlement involving the entire west bank..that way the whole dirty mess can be done at "one fell swoop". I suspect it may well go that way, but even it does not my basic scenario remains intact. Just to be on the safe side I might time my own visit to Gush Katif settlements (Gaza strip) for this May when I am in Israel rather than wait until the arabs take over all the Jewish homes, farms and industries along the coast.

          PS: ZionGene: Thank you so much for posting those wonderful Scriptures which speak so clearly of God's love for the Jews and Israel throughout all time!
          Last edited by HSB; 03-08-2005, 02:43 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            HSB... What a wonderfully succinct capture of the essence of 'our time'. I believe that He is letting us in on a number of things that have been 'confusing' for past generations. We, who are in the Light-of-the-Cross are seeing His Plan unfold with every passing 24-hours. What an exhilarating ride to be on the side of the King-of-Kings. To have His Holy Spirit reveal insights into His Plan for the Ages. To be taken into His 'War-Room' and be made aware of things unfolding even as we are speaking.

            What a time to be visiting Israel... May is two months away! It appears that Elections are being called for June/July... and the Sanhedrin has now jumped into the 'Frey' by challenging the very decisions of the Knesset. There is a tremendous battle shaping up for power within Israel today. And we are on the sidelines looking in and seeing the hand of God, both protecting His People, and correcting His People. We see Him as the Father protecting His Family, and as the Father disciplining His wayward Children. In the past He has used 'other' Nations... I believe He will continue to use 'other' Nations...

            He let 'other' Nations do to His People what was in their hearts to do... And then He held them responsible for those very actions... Actions that were intended to drive His People back to their God! Woe to those Nations that come against His People.
            HBS... you describe very clearly how those 'other' Nations may very well come against His People... Is time running out? I believe that it is… This is really happening Folks!
            ==================
            Note: Arutz this morning…
            The body known as the Sanhedrin has concluded its deliberations on the disengagement plan, flat-out rejecting it.
            The current format of the Sanhedrin is an attempt to renew the historic Sanhedrin, Judaism's highest legal-religious tribunal during Holy Temple times. The 71-man assembly convened in one of the Holy Temple chambers, and existed from several decades before the Common Era until roughly 425 C.E. The renewed edition was launched last year in Tiberias, and generally convenes in Jerusalem.

            Following an intensive study and debate on the issue and its halakhic [Jewish legal] implications, the Sanhedrin declared this week, inter alia:

            * The disengagement plan, involving the uprooting of Jewish communities in Gaza and Samaria and the abandonment of these areas to a foreign entity, is in direct contradiction to the Torah of Israel, and is null and void. Future governments of Israel will have to re-conquer the areas in question.

            * The decision to implement the uprooting will cause large numbers of Jews to transgress many of the Torah's commandments.

            * The Government of Israel and the Knesset, in their present form and power structure, are institutions that have no authority according to Jewish Law to render decisions that contradict the Torah of Israel.

            * No Jew is permitted to cooperate with the program of uprooting, in any way whatsoever.

            * Any Jew – including a soldier or policeman – who supports the uprooting, whether directly or indirectly, whether by voting in its favor, or by giving counsel, or by supplying vehicles or materials, and certainly anyone who actively participates in the uprooting, thus transgresses a large number of Torah commandments, such as not standing idly by one's neighbor's blood (Lev. 19,17).

            * The uprooting of the residents of the Gaza Strip and Samaria is a crime and an injustice to the residents, and places many other communities – in fact, all citizens of the State of Israel – in mortal danger.

            * By this declaration, the Sanhedrin, as the link of continuity of the Torah received by Moses at Sinai, hereby expresses the stance of Israel's Torah... The Sanhedrin, as the representative of the Jewish people throughout history, hereby affirms that the Jewish people -- regardless of this or that government -- does not relinquish, and is not entitled to relinquish, so much as the span of a solitary man's foot of the Land of Israel according to its Biblical boundaries, for it is G-d's land.

            For more information, see "http://www.templeinstitute.org".
            ==============
            Hosea 6:2… prophesied and we are seeing its reality in our lifetime!

            “After two days [two-thousand years] will He revive us [Israel became a Nation]; in the third day [the coming one-thousand years] He will raise us up [Make Israel the Super Power of the Planet with Christ Reigning from the Throne-of-David in Jerusalem], and we shall live in His sight.”

            This is for real Folks… This is happening and this is our Generation… God is on His Throne, and He is unfolding His Plan, as He Chooses to do it! And He is letting us in on the War-Plan!!!

            Even so come Lord Jesus!

            Comment


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              I tell you what: if the secular leaders of Israel have not been given pause before, then, as of today, they have begun to hold their breath! The Sanhedrin has joined the fray over the controversy of the land! I expect things to move very fast indeed!

              Comment


              • The Sanhedrin´s Declaration Concerning the Disengagement

                (here is another link to the article Don Brooks was talking about.)

                The Sanhedrin´s Declaration Concerning the Disengagement

                http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=78078

                Comment


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Dear PlumBob


                  Well, come to think of your question Are you saying that God "protects" Israel, even in their folly? And that God extends "protection" to Israel by putting them under the domination of another nation that will not let them stray so far away that they might become completely annihilated?. Well, that might have been the "human" reason for the slavery in Egypt!

                  If you read the account of how the twelve sons of Jacob were behaving just before they went down into Egypt, you might suspect as much. Judah, who represented the best of Israel had a child with his daughter-in-law, as the result of consulting a lady who he thought was a prostitute. Two of the other boys hacked to death a group of people after agreeing to make peace with them; Ruben, the eldest boy went to bed with one of his father's wives. Israel had begun to absorb the culture of the Canaanites, and it was time to move them to an isolated area in Goshen Egypt, where the culture was slightly more enlightened.

                  Think of the Babylonian Captivity and Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar had so much decency and respect for the God of Israel, that he agreed to spare a king of Israel, after the king swore by The Lord that he would behave himself. Also, Nebuchadnezzar only killed Israelites who resisted--the rest he relocated, and even promoted the godly among them to posts in his administration, as may be seen in the cases of Daniel, Shadrach, Mesheck, and Abednego. Nebuchadnezzar educated his slaves, which we as a nation only grudgingly learned to do 2500 years afterwards.

                  And what was the net effect of all this? I heard someone say that after the Babylonian Captivity of seventy years, that Israel was at least no more given to drunkenness.

                  Then take the Median Empire which followed that one, and to whom God made Israel subject. Mr. Sharon could learn a thing or two about morals and abiding by his word, from the example of King Darius, who regretfully cast Daniel into the lions' den, simply to maintain a previous written commitment, which he had come to regret. And, as it is now, the leaders of Israel had sunken ethically to a point, well below the level of that practiced among the more enlightened gentiles of the day

                  And when the Greeks came along, who can deny that they had the finest and most orderly culture of the world of that time, which was reflected in the fact that their language, and thought processes, where employed by other nations (including NT writers) long after they were deposed by from first place. God allowed the Greek Empire to enclose Israel for some time.

                  Then came the Roman Empire, whose Law and order are lauded to this day, under whom God put Israel under control for a few centuries, and if Pilate and company had adhered strictly to the ideals of that Law, they would never have put Christ to death: Roman Law was excellent, and decent, although practice of it was very rare.

                  Then in this era, the Arabs were since elevated to control the land of Israel, when their culture was finer than everyone else's. And so it was the Turks; then the British. Each was at its best when it was given control of the Land and People of Israel. And I heard someone say that one very definite good which has come out of the sad story of Israel over the last two thousand years, is the fact that the Jewish People have been completely purged of every taint of idolatry.

                  God has often appointed a Gentile nation--generally the best of the crop--to freely put Israel in a sweat box at its discretion, until such time as wayward Jacob would cry "uncle" to the Divine Wrestler. And you do not have to look far to see which nation is best qualified for that role today

                  Comment


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    ZionGene: PlumBob is still at the salt mines so I will chime in with a quick word. I was fascinated with your last post outlining the impact of the various gentile powers on Israel. While I understand that each in turn had a role in purging sin from Israel I part ways with you over the benign nature of this parade of gentile "occupiers". Saying that good ol Neb only killed Jews who resisted is a lot like saying the Germans only killed Dutch or French or Poles who resisted them in WW2. I think that is a dangerous path to agree to simply give up when the foreign conqueror knocks on your door, shortly before he kicks it in. I doubt you would find any support among Jewish sages or rabbis that 2500 years of gentile domination is a good thing at all. What happened to the old spirit of the Macabee warrior? Perhaps I misread the post somewhat.
                    In 1948, after all these centuries since Neb arrived with the Babylonians, a free Jewish state was proclaimed in the world. While it would be preferable for it to be a totally God-fearing and serving nation, I believe that the Almighty has His hand on that little country and a plan for good! Having the world pressure them to give up the ancient Lands, not to mention the strategic depth that is critical west of the Jordan is despicable to my sense of right and wrong. I cannot see how God will allow the Jews to be dragged out of there yet again (yet His ways are certainly higher than ours) This time I believe the folks coming to knock with their little battering rams will get a healthy kick in the pants.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      Dear HSB

                      I think that you will agree with me that it was God's will at the time of Jeremiah, for Israel to be subject to the King of babylon. The text to prove that is easy to find

                      I like to support whatever I say with some text of scripture, or drop it.

                      I quote a few texts below from Jeremiah to explain what I affirmed about Nebuchadnezar sparing the non-resistors. And remember, it was Jeremiah's recommendation that the nation not resist Necuchadnezzar's takeover, and he said so in the name of the Lord.

                      Evidently, the people that were killed by Nebuchadnezzar were Israelites--along with their families--who resisted him.  And for God to say that the lives of the non-resistors would be spared, then it must follow that that was Nebuchadnezzar's policy too. He could only promise what He knew that Nebuchadnezzar would do. Incidentally, it was also Nebuchadnezzar's policy to also be extermely cruel to anyone and their family who did resist, beginning with the digging out of the eyes of the king Zedekiah

                      Jeremiah 21:8 And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death. 9 He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.

                      Jeremiah 38:2 Thus saith the LORD, He that remaineth in this city shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth forth to the Chaldeans shall live; for he shall have his life for a prey, and shall live.

                      Jeremiah 38: 17 Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the
                      LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house: 18 But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.

                      (I quote the following text to prove that the term "thy life shall be for a prey" does not mean to die or be destroyed in any way)
                      
                      Jeremiah 39:16 Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith
                      the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee. 17 But I will deliver thee in that day, saith the LORD: and thou shalt not be given into the hand of the men of whom thou art afraid. 18 For I will surely deliver thee, and thou shalt not fall by the sword, but thy life shall be for a prey unto thee: because thou hast put thy trust in me, saith the LORD.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Ziongene I agree with your comments related to Jeremiah. God had given the country over to invasion and Jeremiah was saying that resistance in that case was futile. That does not mean that that applies to the next 2500 years, that the Macabees were wrong to resist Syrian Greeks etc. Your comment lauding Greek culture would sit well with the Hellenizers but not so well with those who fought against Antiochus. Ditto for Rome. My point is that God used these for good to discipline His son Israel, but I stop short of lauding the messengers that delivered the discipline.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          

                          Dear HSB



                          HSB, I copy below a paragraph of yours, which I suppose, is in response to my last post

                          That does not mean that that applies to the next 2500 years, that the Maccabees were wrong to resist Syrian Greeks etc. Your comment lauding Greek culture would sit well with the Hellenizers but not so well with those who fought against Antiochus. Ditto for Rome. My point is that God
                          used these for good to discipline His son Israel, but I stop short of lauding the messengers that delivered the discipline


                          HSB, who said that the fact that God used the more excellent nations among the Gentiles to discipline Israel means that it was wrong for the Maccabees--or whoever-- to resist invasions: and for 2500 years too! Who implied that? In what way does my claim that God promoted the Greeks demean the Maccabbees, or take away from their good works? In what way did I exalt Antiochus Epiphanes?

                          I do not laud any discipliner--whether it be my mother, the policeman, or General Schwartscoff. And as it relates to Nebuchadnezzar: given what we know only from the Book of Daniel, he must have been an unusually excellent man: incidentally, he is the only Gentile to supply a full chapter in a Jewish prophetic book with his personal testimony.

                          HSB, God was saying more than that it was futile to resist, because He could have given Israel victory with one sling if He chose: He was saying that it was His will that the nation of Israel not resist at that time, and He was not saying–as I did not–that Israel should be a nation of non-
                          resistors to invasion for all time. He was not suggesting that this be a general
                          option in wartime by citing this case. And I do not believe that by relating this historical fact, does anyone else suggest that Israel would be in error for resisting an Antiochus Epiphanes--who was yet to come--or the Palestinians et al, right through to this time 2500 years later.

                          In the Bible story, Nebuchadnezzar is portrayed as a most excellent warrior, and a man of principle in that he had mercy on those who asked it of him. It cannot be denied, that God supported him in what he was doing at that
                          time. By the time of his grandson, God had changed His position relative to the Chaldeans vis-a-vis Israel.

                          And as it relates to lauding a culture. I do not see how anyone who remembers that the New Testament--with its expansion of the concepts of God's intercourse with Mankind--can deny that there must have been
                          some excellence of the Greeks, which God honored, by allowing the earliest reporting the story of His Son in the Greek language. It was no accident neither, that the Jewish Seventy, fully 200 years before Christ, chose to translate their Torah into the Greek Septuagint: if they did not admire many
                          aspects of Grecian culture, they would not have undertaken to do that, regardless of how it would have made things more convenient.

                          I can see where the Greeks were bad, and where they were good. And the Romans too, must not have been slouches in any sense of the term. I heard someone say that the great roads which tied the Roman Empire together, facilitated the spread of the Gospel.

                          Additionally, and to this day, the larger part of the Christian world speaks English, which says something great about what the British once were. And in fact, that is only county which has the word "great" still attached to its name in the listings of the UN: “Great Britain.”

                          God used these nations when they were at their best, and often gave them the unsavory job of disciplining Israel. I do not see how that can be denied
                          And you must remember too HSB (and this is a fact which none of like to think about): officially as a nation and people, Israel rejected their Messiah, which is the most evil thing that they could do do. And I do not like to think of the fact that even Paul–-a Hebrew of the Hebrews–-said in other words, that left to our Jewish friends, no one today would come to know Christ, and be saved thereby. I could quote 1 Thessalonians 2:14-17 but I rather not!
                          Sure they are enemies for our sakes, but they are enemies none the less, and dead set against Jesus Christ for the most part. Then God complained bitterly in the OT of how "Israel polluted his name among the Gentiles." That is not being nice. Her warfare is not yet accomplished, and bit of Gentile terror is still permitted to disturb!

                          No one lauds these nations for chopping up the Jews, but, I am lauding them for attaining to a certain excellence, humanly speaking, by the time they rose to a position where they encountered the Jews as a group. And the most remarkable rendevous of its kind, was the case when the Roman Empire rose to its peak under Caseaer Augustus, and joined Israel to meet Christ. They were as worthy test instruments as human beings could produce, but even they could not comprehend the limits of the energy under test. Yet Rome greatness attests to the greater glory of Christ

                          And how do we apply all of that to today?

                          The time for Israel to be full dominated by a gentile nation–Times Of The Gentiles–is finished, but it still appears to me, that if there is any one nation which God would allow to still make demands of Israel, it would be the one which He Himself has made top-dog of the Gentile world today. And the
                          exchange may be most uncomfortable for Israel

                          Comment


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Wow, guys......

                            I need to digress for a few minutes, please - This has absolutely nothing to do w/ the thread, but is VITAL for some folks I know.... I work in health care. One of my client hospitals is very small, and situated in a rural area. There is a particular physician who desires to move to that community, and set up a medical practice. For many secular reasons, there is a spirit of divisiveness in the community, and this has allowed spiritual forces to prevent the physician from getting a license in the state. The community very badly needs for this new physician to go there. Please pray with me that the demonic forces that are at work against this young physician will be bound, and that God would see that the fellow is allowed to get a license. Wed, Thurs, and Friday of this week are the critical days. Thank you on behalf of the 2,500 people who need this physician.

                            Now - I’m not sure I can really do a good job of responding to all that’s been posted in the last 24 hrs. I’ll try.

                            ZionGene, first, I’ve gone back and reread your posts of last evening. I really don’t know how to express myself (that’s not ‘confusion’) on this, but your posts just stirred something in me when you said “maybe it is God's will for Israel to be under the thumb of a gentile nation at this time.” This brings me to one of the most basic tenets of my personal belief, that being that God is absolutely in control of my life, and that He doesn’t really give two twits about whether PlumBob is enjoying the ride, if it is what He has decided PlumBob should do (endure, learn, etc.) PlumBob then has the obligation to be a good soldier, salute, and go about the Commander’s business. I use the term ‘obligation’ rather loosely, because it is actually a dual process - it is both my ‘obligation’ and my ‘privilege.’ I struggled (although briefly) when I wrote the reply, because it is not at all a foreign or onerous concept to me, that God would require Israel to be ‘under the thumb’ of another nation, if it was His will, for whatever reason He might have.

                            I doubt that any of us was raised to be appreciative of ‘discipline’ while in the process. Never the less, endure it we did, and appreciate it now, we do. Simply put, I find it fascinating to reflect on the trials and discipline of the Children of Israel from a vantage point now so far removed, and to consider that that discipline may very well have saved their lives. I’m glad you quoted the verses in Jeremiah that clearly told the Israelites to not resist - else I would have had to dig them out myself.

                            HSB, you are indeed a silver-tongued (hummm, silver-fingered) fellow. As the old hymn goes, “Almost persuaded.” But not quite. Perhaps ‘not quite yet.’ Your scenario in and of itself has a rock solid basis, in every way. I perceive, however, that you are depending upon it to be the only scenario. The fact that you (we?) may not be able to see the alternative (at this time) doesn’t mean it’s not there. That is an old axiom of science. We look at a cell under a microscope. Perhaps we are looking for ‘golgi bodies’. (I remember the name, but not what they do ) If we find golgi bodies, we can say “It has golgi bodies.” If we do not find golgi bodies, we can not say “It has no golgi bodies.” They may have run away, right before we sliced the cell . They may not be visible with the kind of preparation we used. We simply don’t know. But only after very careful examination of multiple samples, prepared in multiple ways, are we allowed to say “It probably doesn’t have golgi bodies - at least we haven’t been able to find any.” That being said, I will agree with you that I don’t ‘see’ any other scenario ‘at this time’ that makes ‘any more’ sense! But the nagging is still there.

                            I have fulfilledprophesy book marked, too, HSB, but haven’t read it widely. (Spending too much time in the salt mine.) You intimated that the thrust is about Europe. Yes, I think that the EU is going to do all it can to eclipse the US in power and influence. And I think they will likely be very successful.

                            I raced off to Arutz to look at the Sanhedrin article. Absolutely fascinating. There are pieces falling into place so fast that it makes my head swim! I’m down in the salt mine all day long, and when I come up, it’s a whole new world.

                            Well, enough for one evening, I think. Wife will be home 24hours from now. Yes! The cat and I miss her.

                            Please, do not forget to remember PlumBob's little town and their physician need in your prayers.
                            Last edited by PlumBob; 03-08-2005, 09:01 PM.

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                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              I invite you to latch in onto www.israelnationalradio.com , and scroll down to Eli Stutz and Yishai's Fleischer programs in archives. (Remember, you may have to scroll down). Then click on the latest program on the The Ark Of The Covenant. Good listening!

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                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                PlumBob: you are spending so much time in those salt mines that you have turned into a "salty dawg"! We all delight in your wife's return (I bet even the cat will be happy to see her back ) I am praying that the physician piece will be resolved quickly and in favor of the needs of the small community you mentioned. Fundamental health care is critically important to all of us!!

                                Returning to the thread "theme", I agree completely that a scenario is simply that, a scenario. There is no prize for getting a forecast right in this enterprise (although people do make fortunes when they invest in the right stock or even bet against the dollar's future ) I love to discuss ideas in the open forum. For example ZionGene's interesting assessment of Gentile impact and role in Israel's existence over the centuries. We can all learn from how others respond to our ideas or the challenges they throw out. Here is the frustrating thing to me (over time it probably begins to sound like a Tuba blast) We all know that what happens to Israel is very important in God's scheme of things. We also know He has no obligation to share His exact plan or details with us (I'm not even so sure there is an exact plan with all the details laid out- perhaps there are multiple plans that all have a similar fundamental truth expressed through them..and our decisions influence which way things actually go...but that is probably another thread discussion)

                                Back to my frustration. We know that the world is gearing up to have an Arab state in the west bank with much upset (at least to the settlers there) in the next few months. I have laid out a POTENTIAL future, based on realities and trends I see around me (eg we are running out of oil ) I really want people to critique these concepts, challenge them or build on them. In spite of 7000 plus hits to this thread there are a small handful of folks even involved in the discussion. I still haven't heard any other scenarios that people may be sensing or even an actual critique of the one I posted.

                                My personal background training at university was in Science (Physics and Chemistry) So there are times I look at the world scene as a big experiment. We train students to make a hypothesis and then keep careful observations to see if their hypothesis is confirmed, disproved etc. Often these experiments are harmless but I think you will agree that sometimes the results can be horrific. (eg I wonder what would happen if I rammed a bunch of subcritical-mass pieces of fissile material together at high speed in my lab... ) I need somebody to say "Look HSB, the pieces you are ramming together are actually pieces of granite, and there is no chance of explosion...OR you have a good point HSB. Let us evacuate the whole community before you blow us all up"

                                So PLEASE help me PlumBob and others like ZionGene and Don the Baptist (I love that little handle) and the rest of you dear folks reading this discussion thread... Lay out your best scenarios based on your insights and truth as God reveals it to you. Let us all keep light on our feet and open to others' points of view and even to their rejections (with rationale of course) And let's trust that we are not overtaken with events in the meantime...
                                Last edited by HSB; 03-09-2005, 12:34 PM.

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