Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Roch........ is the ancient name for Russian people
Meshech... is the ancient name for the people who later built Moscow
Tubal....... is the ancient name for the people around Tubalsk

there is good solid evidence for this in history; that is why all the commentators i know of say this........ Scripture also says that the remnants of the northern army will be driven back home to a desolated land in the far north between the mediterranian and artic seas

Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off 07368 from you the northern 06830 [army], and will drive 05080 him into a land 0776 barren 06723 and desolate 08077, with his face 06440 toward the east 06931 sea 03220, and his hinder part 05490 toward the utmost 0314 sea 03220, and his stink 0889 shall come up 05927 , and his ill savour 06709 shall come up 05927 , because he hath done 06213 great things 01431 .

and as i've allready pointed out the Jews have to be at peace at rest in the AC's peace when the Gog war happens. after the rapture. the Gog war is the 2nd seal of Revelation

Lewis: I have been away on holidays so please forgive the delay in getting this response to you. I have just reread the chapter in Joel 2. Most of the chapter delas with an invasion by locusts. The footnotes in my Bible go on to explain that the "army" referred to in verse 20 is that same locust army, and that the seas referred to are respectively the Med and the Dead Sea (on the west side and east side of Israel) Now even if we assume that the writer is switching from locusts to human soldiers, where does the text indicate that this is the same army as that described in Ezekiel 38, 39? The only connection I can see is that it comes from the north (which is the direction that almost all invading armies came from). It may be that the army in Joel is the same one as that described in Ezekiel but would you not agree that this is at best an unproven assumption?

The second question concerns the "good solid evidence" in history. Can you give me any references that connect Roch, Meshech and Tubal with Russia, Moscow and Tobolsk (other than the fact that Hal Lindsey says they are the same). Are you aware of any linguistic analysis that supports this belief? I appreciate you helping me with this. Regards HSB

[JudyAnn]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Bumping back to the front page....


I know we are in a wait and see mode but this is an important thread and don't want it to get lost in the back pages..

Praying for the settlers and the whole disengagement situation.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I am praying fo rthe setters and asking God to be their strong tower and to show him self powerful for those who cast themselves on Him.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Roch........ is the ancient name for Russian people
Meshech... is the ancient name for the people who later built Moscow
Tubal....... is the ancient name for the people around Tubalsk

there is good solid evidence for this in history; that is why all the commentators i know of say this........ Scripture also says that the remnants of the northern army will be driven back home to a desolated land in the far north between the mediterranian and artic seas

Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off 07368 from you the northern 06830 [army], and will drive 05080 him into a land 0776 barren 06723 and desolate 08077, with his face 06440 toward the east 06931 sea 03220, and his hinder part 05490 toward the utmost 0314 sea 03220, and his stink 0889 shall come up 05927 , and his ill savour 06709 shall come up 05927 , because he hath done 06213 great things 01431 .

and as i've allready pointed out the Jews have to be at peace at rest in the AC's peace when the Gog war happens. after the rapture. the Gog war is the 2nd seal of Revelation

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Let me digress for a minute and give you "Eyes-on-the-Ground" and "Feet-in-Gush Katif"... an account! This is real folks!... These people need our Prayers and any help and assistance that we can muster! This is happening right now as we contemplate... in the security of our Western Homeland... that has become so very much like Sodem & Gamorah that if He doesn't do something very focused and specific, then He ows an appology to those two cities of Ancient Times!

========================

By Thursday morning, everyone had left Kfar Maimon. On Wednesday night some 50,000 had gathered together in that small village to attempt the march to Gush Katif. But the police and army had surrounded the village and it became clear that terrible violence would ensue if the marchers were to force their way through. So they marched around the village, in an incredible show of strength and moral courage, but they stopped short of breaking through the gates. Instead, several hundred young people made their way through the fields, all night long, and snuck into Gush Katif.

The most amazing part of the week’s experience was the impression that we made on the general Israeli public. The newspapers, television and radio stations were full of the news regarding the demonstrations and the weekend papers devoted most of their column space to related articles. Over and over again, the theme was repeated – no other community of people in Israel can rally so many to a cause. No other community of people in Israel would gather for three days, in the heat, sleeping on the ground, and would remain peaceful, calm and hopeful. No other community of people in Israel would be as hospitable as the people of Kfar Maimon – opening their homes and their hearts to strangers. Of course, we were not really strangers, for we all shared the same faith, the same ideological cause.

For it was our faith and our commitment that shone through most of all and the rest of Israel could not help but notice. It was not the first time we have demonstrated who we really are. Since the beginning of the settlement movement, our ranks have been filled with people of faith, moral courage and persistence. For the past year and a half, we have demonstrated, hung orange ribbons and participated in a variety of activities to declare our belief in Biblical prophecy. But it has been so hard. The press is overwhelmingly against us and so many have gone out of their way to present us in a negative light. Or to ignore us completely.

Something happened last week that changed that. But I don’t know if it was enough to win the battle. Only time will tell. But I can assure you that what has definitely changed, throughout Israel, is the recognition that our community of people is different and that what distinguishes us is our faith. Period.

I wanted to share with you my own experiences in Gush Katif on Thursday. Yes, after leaving Kfar Maimon on Wednesday, I made arrangements to visit Gush Katif on Thursday and to take with me a prominent rabbi and Jewish community leaders from Chicago.

As you probably know, Gush Katif is a closed military zone and only those with permission from the army are allowed to enter. Given our close relationship with the leadership of Gush Katif over the years, I was granted permission to enter and to bring our distinguished guests with me.

We set out from Jerusalem around noon with every expectation that we would be in Neve Dekalim by 2 p.m. We were so wrong, and our experiences taught us a great deal about what awaits us all as disengagement nears.

There are now 3 roadblocks that one must pass in order to enter Gush Katif, each about 5 miles from the next. The first roadblock was manned by young soldiers who could not have been nicer. It was clear to me that the young man who approached my car was sorry for having to ask for my identity papers, but I cooperated with ease. He entered my identity number into his hand-held computer and received a response that I was authorized to enter Gush Katif. He allowed me through and wished me well.

A few minutes later, we approached the second roadblock, this one manned by the police. There were many uniformed policemen in the middle of the road, as well as a tall fellow in a black t-shirt who was barking orders to others. As I approached the roadblock, one of the uniforms asked for my identity card. He entered my number but his computer indicated that I had not been authorized for entry. When I tried to explain to him that I had been cleared at the previous roadblock, he laughed. He clearly did not believe me, nor did he care. He barked at me to turn around and go home.

But we were not so easily persuaded. We pulled over to the side of the road and began negotiating with the police for the next hour and a half. My neighbor and good friend, Dina Fine, was driving the second car and helped me. I phoned the Gush Katif offices and they, in turn, phoned the officer in charge of giving authorizations. I was told by Gush Katif that this officer, Effie, assured them that we did, indeed have the necessary authorizations. When they asked Effie to inform the police at the second roadblock that we were indeed authorized, he responded that the army had no authority over the police. That all he could do was enter our names and identity numbers into the computer.

“But their computers are obviously not working right!” I countered. Effie could not do anything about that. I then turned to the officer in charge of the roadblock asking him to contact Effie and confirm that he authorized us. His response, given with incredible disdain was :”Tell Effie he can come here personally and talk to me. I am not talking to him.”

I continued to phone the Gush Katif office and they continued to badger the army. But it seemed we had reached an impasse. Even though it is the army who issues authorizations and the police who are manning the checkpoint, the army and the police refused to talk to one another.

Finally, my friend Dina found a more sympathetic policeman who was willing to phone Effie. After one and a half hours, we were finally released and able to proceed. But the experience at this roadblock left a lasting impression on me, for it gave us just a small flavor of how the police might behave while evacuating the brave residents of Gush Katif. They looked at me as if I were a criminal. I later learned that the fellow in the black T-shirt was police special forces, trained in dealing with the most difficult criminal situations. He was not a nice man and will not treat the Gush Katif residents with any sort of gentleness.

The third checkpoint, manned by the IDF, was relatively quick. We just had to convince the soldiers to check our foreign guests on a separate list of foreign passport holders. The delay was only about 5 minutes and we were in.

We arrived in Gush Katif around 3:30 p.m. exhausted and starving. We were met by Laurenz Beziz, our gracious hostess from Gedid and we all had lunch together in Neve Dekalim.

I had been in that restaurant some months ago and the change was palpable. The food was still tasty and plentiful but the woman serving us seemed tired, so tired. I could only imagine the strain she has been under, the constant bombings that have not let up, amid the fear and uncertainty of expulsion looming ahead.

We sat around a long table and Laurenz shared her fears with us. Disengagement looks more real than ever before. And yet, they are still planting and tending their farms and hoping for the best. But the strain and the exhaustion was evident on her as well. When we asked her if she was at least packing up some of her most prized possessions, she said no. She was not going to pack anything – the army would knock on her door and find her in the middle of living. But she was not going to be dragged out either. She would walk out with her head held high.

Imagine having to decide something like this? [There is more, but this gives you an appreciation for what is yet to come... unless He intervenes!!!]

May G-d bless you.
Shalom,
Sondra Oster Baras
Director, Israel Office
Christian Friends of Israeli Communities

==================================

Will you join me and many others in lifting all Israel up the the Throne-Room of God?... We who have been adopted into the Commonwealth of Israel; can we not feel their pain, share in their suffering, provide comfort, care, and encouragement? We who have been Graphted in as a Branch [not the Root, nor the Trunk, nor the Boughs], BUT... only a Branch in in a much bigger entity... in need of the 'others' for our very sustenance!

May God honour His Name in these days ahead!

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Regarding Gog and Magog and Russia:

I believe that Gog is the ruler not the group; Magog is the group. For reasons I won't list here I think Gog is a demon king. I'm not listing the reasons because the focus of my post is how Magog comes to be associated with Russia.

Hesiod, a greek poet from the 8th Century BC (approximately concurrent with Ezekiel) links Magog with the Scythians, as does Herodotus, the "father of History" circa 5th century BC. The Scythians were nomads who dominated the region from the Ukraine to China for about 10 centuries. I think part of the association is because the Russians are descended from the Sythians (and others).

In short, the link is based on much more than "sounds like" evidence. Magog is linked to Russia with some pretty solid historical evidence.

IMHO

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I liked that root word idea. I know God knows how confusing this all has been for us. It would be so nice to know definitively. I can see it both ways ---the 'sounds like'--seems very plausible and the 'root word' way takes us down more of a metaphorical way but plausible again.

Today we value (in the west) Materialism which leads to Perversion and Personal Comfort above all esle. Oh Materialism is like the god Molech we sacrifice our children to it in the fires of daycare, and parent absencia.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Lewishb...
It is true that most expositors suggest Russia as Gog... however on what basis??? Perhaps you can help me in this regard... as ancient Gog was located, not in Russia at all, but in what is presently Georgia!

BTW... the USA currently has five Air Bases under their total control and these are fully stockpiled as Support for any Military action that the USA my decide... it is through this large American presence that "Russia" would have to move through, to come down from the North! It is also interesting, that Georgia too, is North of Israel!!! The only Non-Muslim Country [Orthodox] in this immediate area! And wants desperately to never again fall under the control of Russia!!!

Now getting back to why Russia... the only argument that I have been exposed to is the argument of... "It sounds like"!
Roch........ sounds like Russia
Meshech... sounds like Moscow
Tubal....... sounds like Tubalski [near Siberian border]

Is there any other credible determination for Russia than... "Sounds Like"?

It is my understanding that Ancient Jewish Rabbi's were not able to discern who Gog might be and finally decided that like much of Daniel's Prophecy, it might only become apparent at the time of the end! Perhaps we are just now being able to see how it is that the West is taken out of the picture... perhaps!

I don't think that we should rest our only perspective of Gog on a foundation of... "It Sounds Like"!!! What are the Root Words for Roch - Meshech - Tubal ?
Wouldn't it be prudent to at least look into their root meanings? Here are some possibilities...
Roch... Chief Prince [Top Dog] "President?"... etc.
Meshech... same root word that we get Materialism from...
Tubal... same root word that we get Perverted from...

Now things really start to get interesting...

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Don, i must disagree with your analysis. i believe it violates the clear meaning of Ezekiel as well as being politically impossible. all the nations that come against Israel are listed in Ezekiel, the list doesnt include America. Russia is imho clearly Gog........ all the expositers i know of say so.....

the Gog war is imho the 2nd seal of Revelation, AFTER the AC's peace long after the present troubles after the rapture which makes America militarily impotent for quite a while....

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Hi All...

I have no inside information other than what has been published right here on our thread... SOOooo.... let's summarize:

George has Three Battle Groups in the Persian Gulf [Each Comprising an Air Craft Carrier... a Nuclear Sub and destroyers for protection, 86 - 90 Planes capable of tactical nukes and smart ordnance, and manpower]. In addition, he has a whole Army in the Negev, with mobility provided by Tracker Vehicles built in London, Ontario, making it the most mobile Army in History. On top of that, he has Five Air Bases under total US control. Outside of Israel, he has, of course, the Troops in Iraq, as well as Five Air Bases in Georgia [fully stockpiled for immediate Support of any major thrust in the Middle East]!!! George is ready!!!

It is my opinion that George has as his personal goal [Legacy]... The man that brought Peace to the Middle East!
Given the above...
PlumBob... I agree with you that 40,000 IDF and 10,000 Police to move 8,000 now grown to 10,000 out of Gush Katif will cause much "Mess-up"!!!

However, I disagree that it will derail the process for the West Bank!!!

George's time-clock is running out if he is to realize his Legacy.... I think that George will obtain UN sanction for action [getting the Orthodox Jews out of the West Bank]... so that he has the United World on his side as he begins to do the 'Dirty Work' that Sharon will have demonstrated his inability to accomplish! The whole World is behind this drive for a Palestinian State, and by George, George is going to make it happen before his mandate runs out. His original target of a Palestinian State by end-2005, may have to slip 4-6-8 months... but not much more in my opinion... as this current Mandate is running out on George!

IMO... God will protect / defend His Name, and He will do it on the Mountains of Israel... not on the Mountains of Palestine! Gog is going to get 'swatted' on the Mountains of Israel in the next six to twelve months!

How do we get the word out that the midnight hour is only seconds away? There is a whole lot of 'hurt' coming down the pipe, and no one seems to be exercised to any great extent! How do we tell "The Story"???

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

It's confusing - tht's for sure.

Hello, All -

Considering events like the following: Quoted from Debka: http://www.debka.com/

Mofaz: If the Palestinian Authority does not catch the murderers of Dov and Rachel Kol, Israel will find and punish them. Three Palestinian terror groups claimed murder of the Jerusalem couple in Gaza Saturday nightJuly 24, 2005, 11:10 PM (GMT+02:00)

They were shot dead on the on the Kissufim road driving home from visit to Ganei Tal, Gaza Strip. The attack was claimed by Gaza-based Fatah-al Aqsa Brigades, Popular Committees and Jihad Islami.

and

DEBKAfile Exclusive Military Sources: Sharon has ordered IDF chief of staff to stand by for a major pre-emptive operation against Gaza terrorist bases – before the mid-August pull-out.July 24, 2005, 11:22 PM (GMT+02:00)

The strikes against Palestinian Hamas, Jihad Islami and Popular Fronts Gaza bases are planned to consist of combined aerial-ground raids pinpointing the terrorist organizations’ leaders and infrastructure

I believe there is still some liklihood that the disengagement could be pushed back, day-by-day, and week-by-week. I also noted w/ some interest that J Solana had tacitly volunteered for the EU to be involved in some way - check-point guards, was it? I don't remember exactly. In any case, if the EU should become a "trusted friend" it wouldn't be that large a stretch to seem them put together a package of peace guarantees.

Finally, I was in the Jerusalem Post site last night and they have set up a special "Disengagement 2005" section. The news there tonight is noticably biased FOR the disengagement - as has been JPost's proclivity this whole time. http://www.jpost.com/ 21 days and counting down.

I believe that we should again remind ourselves that if, in fact, any of us have opinions about what we would like to see happen over there, the time for us to intercede in prayer is growing very short.

-------- LATER --------

I have just been down my trap-line of links to news from Israel. It is pretty clear that there no longer is much support for the disengagement, except in some circles of the government.

I also saw an interesting thought from an Israeli, that hinted that if indeed the Gaza Strip gets disengaged (I don't know what else to call it) - that the "lessons learned" from the process will force the abandonment of the West Bank disengagement. We have not yet seen the final complexion of this mess, I imagine.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I was just looking at the numbers olooks at posts to this thread---23,573.
That tells us that many people are interested in Ezekiel just now and looking at these chapters in question.

Wendyj, this thread was 6 months old last Friday - it started on 1/22/05. I have kept a watch over the number of views and posts the whole time. It has consistently run at about 24.5 - 26 views per post. The Ark and Politics thread is currently running nearly 31 views per post. I can only surmise that you are correct about there being a LOT of interest in this particular subject

Many moons ago we jokingly left a couple of messages for the CIA and NSA guys to forward along to President Bush. We never got a reply (much less a "Thank You for your Input.") But I rather imagine that some agency has an automated (spell that smart computer) reader that is watching for specific words or patterns. It's just that the computer, not having a soul, can't get saved, and therefore really doesn't care much about what's really happening.

[wendyj]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I was just looking at the numbers olooks at posts to this thread---23,573.
That tells us that many people are interested in Ezekiel just now and looking at these chapters in question.

Andy is there anyway to tell whether security forces are reading our posts?

[Doug Fowler]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Definitely a possibility; I wuld be amazed, in a way, if any Muslim states would be willing to stand by while Israel is given a peace treaty; if the AC is the one to defend Israel, then God can't get the glory for delivering them. To me, it has to be int he 2nd 3.5 years, or before the tribulation starts.

I just wonder, if they are crediting God with the victory in Israel, if they would then turn around and sign the treaty with the AC.

Hmmm, then again, I need to remember to think like the present day Orthodox Jews and not like a Christian when approaching how the Israelis would see this. We know Jesus was the promised Messiah, they don't yet. So, I suppose you culd have a situation where the Palestinians and all those others are wiped out in Ezekiel 38/9, and then with all the Israelites turning to Orthodoxy, suddenly the AC comes on the scene and signs the treaty for seven years.

It's confusing - tht's for sure.

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

...Then, you could have them all gathering into the land, perhaps with the Palestinians wiped out but not the Persians, etc.. AC chases them out, and while he's been holding back the tide all this time, he tells God and all the others, "Okay, go ahead, they're like sitting ducks now, go for it." That's when God supernturally rescues them...

Doug,

Is it possible that the Palestinians will join in with the invaders/peacekeepers in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Ezekiel 39:
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

Only a sixth of any Palestinians joining in the fray will survive. How likely is it that an "incident" will occur of great magnitude in Israel but the Palestinians will not join in as one of the hordes? I think it may be very possible that a majority of the Palestinian men will be dead within the next couple of years. This will reduce the opposition to Israel occupying the land God gave them.