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Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    I am not smart enough to float opinions which crop up entirely from my own mind.
    LOL! You sure have the rest of us fooled. But I rather think that you head is full of the Holy Spirit, and that's where the opinions come from

    Originally posted by ZionGene
    Furthermore, to the many folks who have logged onto this thread, we have an obligation to submit our notions to “Thus saith the Lord.

    . . . or the “…they shall smite the Judge Of Israel with a rod upon the cheek” of chapter 5:1. . .

    In your last post, you zeroed in on chapter 4, from about verse 10 to verse 13. The first section of that portion speaks of the degradation of Israel in Babylon, YET, the last part underlines the exaltation of Israel from verse 11 through 13, and I agree with you PlumBob that it has a current applications too.

    Thanks for clarifying that Ch 4 is in part refering to Babylon. I wasn't sure what the reference was. But, let's don't just stop w/ 5:1, let's go on a bit -

    Mic 5:2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity. 3 Therefore He will give them up until the time when she who is in labor has borne a child. Then the remainder of His brethren will return to the sons of Israel. 4 And He will arise and shepherd His flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD His God. And they will remain, because at that time He will be great to the ends of the earth. 5 This One will be our peace. . .

    Mic 5:7 Then the remnant of Jacob will be among many peoples like dew from the LORD, like showers on vegetation which do not wait for man or delay for the sons of men. 8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations, among many peoples like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among flocks of sheep, which, if he passes through, tramples down and tears, and there is none to rescue. 9 Your hand will be lifted up against your adversaries, and all your enemies will be cut off.
    Quotes from New American Standard Bible

    Anyway, it sure looks to me like the dots connect...

    Now I'm going off to listen to Tamar's latest


    • Getting more intense by the day....

      Those of us who remember the "coincidence" of Christ's suffering on the cross with the very time when the Jews were preparing the passover lambs according to the Law of Moses, must shudder at similar coincidences highlighted below from an article in Arutz Sheva of Israel.

      This past Shabbat Torah portion dealt with the sin of the golden calf, when Jews in the desert, despite having received the ten commandants from G-d, created a golden calf idol. G-d ordered Moses, high up on Mt. Sinai, to leave the peak and return to the people. Reaching the bottom of the mountain, Moses was greatly angered; not so much because of the actual creation of the calf; rather, because people were joyous, singing and dancing around the idol. Moses was furious at the people's celebrations and, as a result, threw the tablets of the law on the ground, shattering them into pieces.

      Sitting in Ma'arat HaMachpela, hearing this chanted from the Torah on Saturday morning, I could not help but envision the pictures of Ariel Sharon and his cronies in the Knesset, at the moment of 'victory', when Israel's parliament passed the 'pinui-pinzui' Disengagement legislation, officially recognizing the uprooting of between nine to ten thousand Israelis from their homes in Gush Katif and the northern Shomron. Such huge, gorgeous smiles adorned Sharon and Shimon Peres' faces. Such joy. The golden calf, all over again.

      Of course, Sharon and Co. are hanging their legitimacy on law and democracy. Whatever the Knesset says, that's the way it is. Well, I used to be a democrat, accepting the rule of a parliamentary majority. But I've ceased to believe in such falsity. First of all, this administration's decisions have nothing to do with democracy. Sharon's election platform negated unilateral abandonment of Eretz Yisrael, specifically Gush Katif. (This, contrary to his opponent's position on the same issue.) Sharon also ignored two binding 'democratic' votes, rejecting his planned Katif expulsion plan.
      Second, there are some issues not even a parliament can decide. Could a Knesset majority abolish Shabbat? Could a parliamentary majority decide that all first-born males be tossed into the sea? Can the Knesset legitimately decide that that Eretz Yisrael really isn't Eretz Yisrael?

      Third, as I have previously written, democracy has turned into a deity, not a means to an end; it has become the goal in and of itself. Sharon, Peres and others are using democracy just as the Jews in the desert followed the golden calf, almost the worst of all transgressions

      It is ironic that the 'expulsion' is due to begin on the 17th or 18th day of Tammuz (the end of July), which is, according to the Hebrew calendar, the anniversary of the creation of the golden calf. The expulsion is to continue during the 'three weeks', the days between the 17th of Tammuz and the ninth day of Av, when we mourn the destruction of the First and Second Temples. The ravaging of Eretz Yisrael is due to be implemented on the very days when the Jewish people in the desert also rejected Eretz Yisrael, crying, "we cannot live in the Land - a land of giants, and land which devours its residents, a land which is not good." Only two of the twelve men sent to spy out the land reacted otherwise, saying, "It is a very, very good land." They, too, weren't a majority; they were a tiny minority, two of twelve, but they were right and the others wrong. They were rewarded with life, the others, punished with death. Is this what we are returning to - the worst of all offences, rejecting the Land G-d gave us, his eternal gift to the Jewish people, a wrongdoing which led to Israel's being banished to the desert for forty years?

      Clearly, the two most damaging acts ever performed by the Jewish people are playing themselves out again: bowing down to the golden calf and rejecting Eretz Yisrael. What will it take for us to learn?

      On Shabbat, following completion of the Torah reading, we concluded with a passage from the book of Kings, describing how Eliyahu HaNavi, Elijah the prophet, proved the deceit of idol worship on Mount Carmel, beseeching the L-rd to send a flash of fire from the heavens to devour his sacrifice and not that of the 'majority' idol worshippers.

      Perhaps, today too, we are in need of the hand of G-d, a bolt of lightening from the Heavens.

      (The full article may be read at the url below)


      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Zion Gene, Plum Bob and HSB,

        Are there any connections between Ezekiel 36 and Isaiah 17? Could one precipitate the other? I'm asking because my understanding gets twisted and in the way sometimes when it comes to prophetical teachings and terminology of the OT: sometimes I get and most times I don't.

        Any commentary would be greatly appreciated.

        Thanks! YSIC,


        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          I will leave the heavy lifting to ZionGene and PlumBob, those two pillars of strength!! Here is my 2 shekels worth.
          I am assuming that your interest in Isaiah 17 concerns the "heap of ruins" that Damascus is prophecied to become. You are looking at the connection between Isaiah and Ezekiel 36.

          I find chapter 7 of Isaiah to make a close fit as part of the whole deal with Syria. Damascus was the capital of Aram, a territory encompasssing modern day Syria. Notice that this passage in Isa. 7 deals with the sign of the miracle baby (a virgin will be with child.. a son Immanuel). In the New testament this passage is applied to the birth of Jesus in Matt 1:23. It is interesting that the passage in Isa. 7 also says earlier in that chapter "within 65 years" both the pressure from Aram and Samaria would be shattered. In fact by 670 BC this had been completed when the King of Assyria settled foreign collonists (from the desert!) into Samaria.

          I believe the early apostles had a vibrant eschatology that went something like this: Jesus is a fullsome fulfillment of the "sign" given in Isa. 7. He is the miracle baby born around 3 BC. I believe the early Christians were looking for the oppressing power on Israel to be shattered therefore by around the early 60's AD (ie the 65 years after the baby born). Now this never did occur on synch, and Peter linked up with Paul in Rome and confirmed a canon of Paul's writing as well as his own and John's (read that in Second Peter) that would last for a long time (eg the next 2000 years ..remember it is in 2 Peter where the apostle says a day = 1000 years etc) I think this also explains why there was a flurry of writing in the early 60s when there had hardly been anything for 30 years!

          But fast forward to today!!! the 2000 years are up and it is time for the redemption. We even have a "miracle baby" Out of Egypt I called my son...applies to Jesus but it first applied to Israel as a nation (see Hosea 11:1...when Israel was a child, I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son, etc) You see the baby also applies to Israel. I believe in 1948 a miracle baby was born in the Middle East (the modern state of Israel), and that even though redemption did not follow 65 years after Jesus' birth it may well follow 65 years after modern Israel's birth! If this line of reasoning is correct than look for the redemption process to be completed with the shattering of all oppressors of Israel by 1948 + 65 = 2013 as the very end. that would mean that we are heading into the last "week" very shorty indeed.

          God talks in Isa. 7 of a SIGN that He will give, a miracle baby!! He has done that in our age (in 1948) then added to it Jerusalem and the remainder of the west bank areas in 1967. Redemption is getting closer ever day. And the power of Syria and others over the House of Israel will be lifted forever. Bless His Holy Name!

          Maybe we will find out some day that the spat between Jews and Christians about who fulfills Isaiah's prophecies more completely (Jesus or Israel) will all melt away, and in the immortal words of that old Certs breath mint commercial, someone will yell out "Stop, you are both right!!"

          PS Never did say much about Isaiah 17 but did mention Syria. The heap of ruins I take to be a nuclear destruction at some point, sooner or later.
          Last edited by HSB; 03-01-2005, 01:57 PM.


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            According to Isaiah 17, Syria's capital will become a ruinous heap: something which has never happened in the history of this, the longest continuously inhabited city in the world. That destruction is in the future and it will probably happen at the hands of Israel. There are some who say that this destruction will take place during the 7-year Tribulation Period, and others who believe that it will happen before then, and that it is the next violent clash that Israel will have with a nation.

            In Isaiah 13:17, God promises to "stir up" the Medes and the Persians against old Babylon, and that they would unmercifully wreak havoc on the people who lived there. That is the kind of thing He does at times, to get the attention of a nation. Something like what people have been known to do with a piece of wood, to a stubbon mule.

            It appears that not only do the leaders of Israel today have a neck problem, but the hearing seems to be off also. Therefore Shelby, I expect that God will "stir up" some nation against Israel today. Iran is doing a good job at it which may encourage Syria to do the same. Syria may just be used by God to distract Mr. Sharon for some time. I think that we would do well Shelby, to listen again to the weekly interview of Mr DeYoung, which he held with Mr.Dolan, at That interview included the distraction element of Syria today


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              HSB, that Child-Son-Israel, Child-Son-Messiah application of Isaiah 7 is so beautiful, and it is the kind of mix which both Christians and Jewish interpreters have missed ever so often, and have often denied. Many Jews say that putting Jesus in Isaiah 7 (and in chapter 53 etc.) is taking things out of context. Many Christians try limiting the word "Israel" in the prophecies to the group called out by God, beginning with the ministry of Jesus, which it claims is the New Israel--to the exclusion of nation of Israel. But that "out of Egypt have I called me son," knocks that last point flat: His son Israel was in Egypt under Pharoah; His Son Jesus was brought out of Egypt on a donkey (probably) with Mary and Joseph; His Son, the nation of Israel, is brought out of Egypt during this era (as you, HSB, have pointed out). Otherwise, some scriptures would not make sense, which they all most certainly do

              Here are other sets that I have noticed.

              There was an Elijah the Tishbite; there was at the time of Christ another Elijah the son of Elizabeth and Zechariah; there will be an Elijah during the Great Tribulation, who I suspect, although manifesting the same spirit, will not be a reincarnation of any of the previous two, but a different individual altogether. There was a son of Perdition antichrist of sorts in Antiochus Epiphanes; there was a son of perdition (Judas) at the time of Christ, and there will be The Son Of Perdition in the future, who will be Satan himself, and neither of the three was or will be the same individual.

              Thanks HSB for underlining that Son/Child combination in Isaiah 7


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Hi Shelby...

                Excuse me for a minute, I'll be right back -

                Originally posted by HSB
                I will leave the heavy lifting to . . . PlumBob
                HSB, are you feeling OK? Can I get you an aspirin? I know this great hospital that can treat your psychoses - just let me know.

                Shelby, I'm back -

                Long answer - I don't have a clue.
                Short answer - Beats me.

                I'm just feeling my way around in the dark here. But I'm really glad you asked the question, because now I see where the "Damascus will become a ruinous heap" comes from. Duhhhh. That being said, I did go back and read thru both Isaiah 7 and 17. I really like HSB's way of drawing parallel illustrations from both the Old Testament and the New.

                ZionGene has pretty well summarized where I think my understanding of Is 17 would take me. At some time within the last few years (last Week - or so) Damascas will take a hit. Within the Trib or before? I'm clueless. I've said before that I agree w/ Don-the-Baptist that God intentionally obscures many (spell that most?) of the clues.

                From a present-day facts-on-the-ground (that seems to be the new buzz-phrase) standpoint, tho, Syria is becoming a royal pain in the neck, both for the US, for Israel, and for other Arab nations. Russia is apparently willing to play kissey-huggy w/ them, and with Iran, because Russia wants the cash from selling military goodies. I rather imagine that some of the other Arab countries would like to see Syria straighten up its act a bit, tho, it probably puts some implicit pressure on them, when one of their neighbors is a thorn in President Bush's toe. In Saudia Arabia, for instance, the kingdom (what ever his name is) is hanging on by a thread. Syria walking around thumping its chest like a gorilla doesn't make it any easier for the Saudi politicos to hang onto power, which they desperately want to do, and to stay on good terms w/ President Bush.

                That being said, if Damascas were to get nuked, we'd hear all manner of wailing and gnashing of teeth in the open press. What we wouldn't hear would be the Saudi princes, for example, saying something to the effect of "Oh well.." The whole region is Very volatile. Israel surely senses that its national security very well may hinge on preemptive strikes against both Iran and Syria. The question now is - how far down the rabbit hole will A. Sharon chase this impossible peace before he is either deposed, or comes to his senses, or God simply intervenes.

                Oh my - I seem to have gotten up on a soap box - I'm truly sorry....

                Now, HSB, ZionGene, Don-the-Baptist, BA, and everybody else, in looking at Shelby's question, I've got a couple more of my own, but I've going to save them until we've run through this pretty well. I've got them written down so I won't forget.

                Now off to look at the news


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  (I thought to throw in once again the article below. It may just help us to maintain an even keel)

                  Arutz Sheva -

                  It Will Never Be!
                  by Rabbi Dov Begon
                  February 13, 2005

                  The purpose of both the "Disengagement Plan" and the "Roadmap" is the establishment of an Arab state in the very heart of the land of our life's blood. Regarding such a state, I habitually write, "It will never be."

                  In response, one of the readers, a Jew named Avraham H. from Haifa, wrote, "Although you write that the Disengagement and an Arab state will never happen, I still have my fears that they will indeed happen. From where can we draw strength and encouragement? Can we stop the evil decree? What can we do? How should we react?"

                  Out of a sense that the writer is expressing the feelings of many, I am responding with an open letter.

                  Dear Avraham,

                  I believe with full faith that it will never be possible to disengage the People of Israel from the Land of Israel. It will never happen. As Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook wrote, "The Land of Israel is an independent entity tied by a living bond to the nation." (Orot 9) Just as Israel are the people of eternity, so is its bond with the Land of Israel eternal.

                  We thus have G-d's promise to Abraham, "On that day, the L-rd made a covenant with Abram saying, 'To your descendants I have given this land.'" (Genesis 15:18) Rashi explains that G-d's word is as good as done. The verb "to give" is therefore in the past tense. It is as though G-d had already given Abraham's seed the Land, despite the fact that on that day, G-d's promise about Abraham having children and receiving the Land had not yet been fulfilled.

                  As far as an Arab state in Eretz Yisrael, that directly contradicts G-d's oath to Abraham at the Binding of Isaac: "Your offspring shall inherit their enemies' gate." (Genesis 22:17) It most certainly will never come to pass.

                  Now, someone might argue: G-d's oath and covenant belong to the distant past and they are irrelevant now. Surely, we see with our own eyes how the American president, George Bush, in cooperation with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, is weaving together a plan to establish an Arab state in the very heart of Eretz Yisrael. Who is capable of standing up to these two powerful men, and just how would they do it?

                  Yet, this argument reminds us of the spies' claim in the desert: "We cannot go forward against those people! They are too strong for us [Heb. mimenu]." (Numbers 13:31) Rashi, noting that "mimenu" can mean "us" or "him", says, "So to speak, they were claiming that the Canaanites were stronger even than 'Him'; i.e., G-d." The spies furthered slandered the Land by saying, "The land that we crossed to explore is a land that consumes its inhabitants.... We felt like tiny grasshoppers. That's all that we were in their eyes." (13:32-33)

                  It is almost like what we are hearing during these times from ignorant people whose faith and spirit have been weakened. Those people are looking for an outlet for their weakness by means of disengaging themselves from Eretz Yisrael and establishing an Arab state - it will never be! Quite the contrary, we need to draw strength and spirit from Calev ben Yefuneh and Yehoshua bin Nun, the great believers. True, they constituted a minority of two against ten, two against that whole generation, yet they declared with faith and fortitude: "We must go forth and occupy the Land. We can do it." (32:30) Ultimately, they were right. We conquered the Land of Canaan, while the spies and the Generation of the Desert were not privileged to go into the Land. Rather, they died in the desert as punishment.

                  Today, Avraham H. of Haifa and many others are suffering, full of worry and doubt. They ask, "What will be? What can we do? From where shall we draw the strength and encouragement at this moment?"

                  We draw strength from faith, as Scripture teaches, "The righteous man shall live by his faith." (Chavakuk 2:4) We possess absolute, certain faith in the oath and covenant that G-d forged with Abraham and with us and with all generations. In that covenant, He swore that Eretz Yisrael belongs exclusively to the Jewish People. Only that faith endures forever, and may it soon achieve magnificent fulfillment, speedily in our day.

                  By contrast, all the previous plans, and all the plans being cooked up now, are like a passing shadow, a drifting cloud, for "there are many thoughts in a man's heart, but it is G-d's counsel that shall endure." (Proverbs 19:21) As far as all of the statesmen in Israel and in the world who are busy with plans, accords and signings, their signatures are worth less than a garlic peel, for they contradict a divine covenant and oath.

                  No Arab state will come into being. Such a state would be a seat of pandemonium, darkness, violence, hatred, wickedness, evil, terror and suffering, for the Arabs themselves and for all of mankind. This is clear for all to see. Such a state will never rise up in the Land of Israel, the Holy Land, whose purpose and essence is to bring goodness and light to the world, to make the world upright, to unite the world and to make peace in the world, in accordance with the vision of all the prophets of Israel.

                  You Jews faithful to Eretz Yisrael are beloved in Heaven and on earth, and you in turn love your people and your land. Regarding all of you, especially the settlers of Judea, Samaria and Gush Katif, who risk their lives for the nation and for the land, and who increase G-d's glory on earth, Scripture states, "These are destined for everlasting life.... the ones who bring merit to the masses, like the stars that give light forever and ever." (Daniel 12:2-3) And may through us be fulfilled Psalm 94:14: "The L-rd will not cast off His people; neither will he forsake His inheritance."


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    AMEN and AMEN, ZionGene....

                    How long have we been dealing w/ this thread? 22nd of January if I remember correctly. And through it all, I guess I've come to the simple conclusion that "It ain't gonna happen." God simply won't allow the creation of an enemy state on his turf. Period.

                    I don't remember which Tamar Yonah show it was, but she was talking to a caller named Sam from California. She asked him if he was Jewish, Christian, or what. He said Jewish. She said "Sam, the exile's over. Come home, we need you here." I don't know why, but that just literally brought tears to my eyes. The exile is truly over, and God's people, both Jew and Christian are getting ready to go Home. PTL....
                    Last edited by PlumBob; 03-01-2005, 09:18 PM.


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      PlumBob: I have taken the aspirin and my senses are now restored. Thanks for the advice. I hope my medical insurance covers the tab.

                      Firstly I want to mention that I also heard Tamar speak to that man from California. I was so happy that she asked if he were a Christian (as well as if he were a Jew) She knows there are a lot of Christians who support Israel. I heard her say to the man that the exile is over, come home, we need you here!!! Wow, what a call. I think God is going to move in the hearts of North American Jews to go home to Israel very soon.

                      I want to comment on a comment you made recently. I don't know how to make the fancy highlighted part like in your quotes but here goes:
                      You said: "I've said before that I agree w/ Don-the-Baptist that God intentionally obscures many (spell that most?) of the clues". I am thinking that I am going to differ with you guys on this one to some extent. Let me explain before you swing your plumbob at me.

                      When I was reading the Scriptures years ago I found Joshua 24:12 "I sent the hornet ahead of you, which drove them out... you did not do it with your own sword". God is speaking about how the Promised Land got occupied by the Israelites. No one had ever told me about that. I had seen many pictures of the Israelites circling Jericho, then attacking other cities, but I never realized that God Himself cleared out the inhabitants using simple insects. No one to my knowledge has ever painted a picture showing the inhabitants running away pursued by hornets/wasps while the newcomers simply moved in. One time I was taking some wood out of a woodpile for a campfire when I accidentally disturbed some hornets. These guys attacked me with extreme violence, repeatedly stinging me on the neck as I ran away as fast as I could. (unlike bees who only sting once). NOBODY can stand in the face of such an attack!

                      Now we know at Kadesh Barnea the spies by majority vote of 10-2 counselled Israel NOT to occupy the Land since there were giants that would beat them up. Were they ignorant of God's instruction to trust Him and that He would provide a plan? In fact He shared his full battle plan with the Israelites at Mount Sinai and then AGAIN on the east side of the Jordan before they entered the Land. Exodus 23:28 says clearly "I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way". He was crystal clear for His part PlumBob! No obscurity there!! I think the obscurity is in OUR OWN MINDS AND HEARTS when we do not simply take God at His word.

                      Nestled between Deuteronomy 6 and 8 (two of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible- the ones Jesus quoted during His testing period in the wilderness) there is a wonderful little passage in chapter 7. God says he "kept the oath He swore to your forefathers" in verse 8. Then in verse 10 it is stated "those who hate Him, He will repay to their face with destruction" He forecast the fear of the Israelites in verse 17 "you may say to yourselves these nations are stronger than we...DO NOT BE AFRAID" and then in Verse 20 "The Lord your God will send the hornet among them until even the survivors who hide from you have perished."

                      Incidentally God says something about blessings and curses later in the book in chapter 28. Blessings for obedience "you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none" while curse for disobedience to Him "He (the alien) will lend to you, you will not lend to him. He will be the head, you will be the tail" That's another whole thread discussion about America's balance of payments crisis, but I disgress.

                      So what is my point?? Simply that God is not so obscure after all. He clearly lays out His gameplan well in advance. NO ONE SHOULD BE CAUGHT BY SURPRISE WHEN THESE THINGS UNFOLD AS HE SAID THEY WOULD. In ancient times to capture the Land the battleplan involved squadrons of little hornets/wasps. In our time God is about to act again. He clearly indicates in Ezekiel 36 through 39 that it is He who is calling the Jews back to resettle the Land and Mountains of Israel. He is about to intervene to stop the whole area being taken away. How? BY EARTHQUAKES!!!! Ezekiel 38:19 " At that time there shall be a great earthquake in the Land of Israel. All the people on the face of the earth will tremble at My presence" Verse 23: "I will show my greatness and my holiness. Then they will know that I am the Lord". 39:22 "From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God" and finally verse 28: "I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind".

                      So there it is - an international force arrives in Israel to implement a deal involving a separate "Jewfree" Arab state in the West Bank region. There will be a huge earthquake just as described in Ezekiel and people will all say "Where on earth did that sucker come from???" But we will know better, and the Jews will see the clear hand of God in their deliverance. I don't know what will happen to the settlers through all this (I suspect God will look after them just fine) I can tell you the Arabs will run away from this Land about as fast as I ran from the woodpile many years ago!! Well that's my 2 shekels worth for now.


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        and more talk of civil war (see lead article in ArutzSheva):

                        "Just two months ago, Labor MK Ephraim Sneh wrote that a civil war between Jews in Israel would not be terrible. "Even if the clash over Gaza exacts a price in blood, it will be tiny compared to the blood and victims that we will have to pay in decades of conflict with the Palestinians," Sneh wrote, adding, "A cruel and destructive civil war formed the democratic character of the United States."

                        I'm not sure many in the U.S. would think that the Civil War between the states in the 1860's was not "terrible"!! Too bad the boys who died at Fredricksburg or Gettysburg are not around to comment.


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Settlers hanging in there- reject "filthy lucre" see

                          Bassi Drastically Amends His Figures
                          14:25 Mar 02, '05 / 21 Adar 5765

                          ( Just yesterday Yonatan Bassi, head of the Government’s Disengagement Administration said that his office had been in touch with around 700 families for which to help in relocation and the doling out of compensation. But today at a press conference he corrected the number, saying that only 25 families have signed any compensation agreement, and that only another 38 families have expressed a fundamental interest to sign.

                          In response to Bassi’s clarification, Yesha sources have commented: “The ridiculous figures that he presented, of a few lone percentages amongst the settlers that have applied to his office, confirm the iron will of the settlers.” Further, “The settlers stand as an invulnerable wall against the intentions of the Expulsion, and against the psychological warfare of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. We congratulate them.”


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            G'morning HSB -

                            Just a quick note, then off to the salt mine...

                            What I had in my mind was really more along the lines of - we don't know exactly when the end is, as in Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (NASB) I appreciate your comments about hornets, etc. Can't argue that in the larger scope of things, we have an overarching understanding of "how the war will go." I'm not sure we have such a detailed picture tho, that we know all the details. Example, where on the time-line does Damascas take a hit? Does the Bible tell us that? If not, then it's one of God's little mysteries. - That's the kind of mystery I'm feeling.

                            To get the cute little underlines and bolds, you "highlight" the material you want to underline, for instance. Put your cursor where you want to begin, hold down the left mouse button, move the cursor to where you want to end, let up the left mouse button. That material should now be highlighted. Move the cursor out of that field, and scroll up or down to where the line of buttons is located that begins w/ B I U and press the B for Bold, I for italics, and U for - well you get the pix. It puts the little codes in for those.

                            Gotta run.


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.


                              Dear HSB

                              I begin with a quote below from one of your recent posts, which you addressed to the esteemed and well beloved PlumBob

                              I want to comment on a comment you made recently.... You said: "I've said before that I agree w/Don-the-Baptist that God intentionally obscures many (spell that most?) of the clues". I am thinking that I am going to differ with you guys on this one to some extent.”

                              I am coming to the help of Bob and Don in this case, and lest I be suspected of not being of a New Testament Church, I will focus this time on Jesus’s words. But since the issue has to do with whether or not God makes some things obscure–even to His own servants-- the subject cannot be fully addressed without reference to the Old Testament, since most of the allegedly obscure passages in scripture have to do with prophecy, and there is more of that in the Old Testament than any where else.

                              I assume that what Don originally said, was related to prophetic matters as they ar understood by believers, because it is otherwise easy to prove that Christ was at times deliberately obscure when He spoke to unbelievers on many subjects. Here are some of His words

                              Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.... 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand

                              Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

                              Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand )

                              The clincher here is Acts 1:6,7 in my opinion: “When they (the disciples and Apostles of Jesus) therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons,...” This tells me that with care and study we might have understood back then what many mysterious elements of prophetic statements were, but that very often, the timing of events was kept back from prophets and apostles; and that they said more than even they understood for most of the time. There is the case of deliberate denial of further clarity to Daniel, in Daniel 12:8, concerning the timing and order of events, as the text implies: “And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”

                              I am sure that Jesus could have broken down further, the order of events in Matthew 24 if He chose to, which to me was an instance of deliberately holding back information from His followers–much of which, many of them would never know. But there is also that mysterious statement of Jesus, in Mark 13:32, where He says [B]“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” [/B] Were there elements of prophecy which were obscure to Christ, and which would only be revealed to Him by The Father in the future?

                              If Jesus had let the disciples know how long it would be before He would return, I dare to say, that they would have been discouraged by the hundreds of years involved. Certainly I believe that that would have been the effect on even Paul, in spite of his towering position before God. And in fact, I have heard mockers say that Paul expected the rapture of the church in his lifetime (the ”now is our redemption nearer than when we first believed”statement of his, could not have been more than 30 years beyond the Damascus Road encounter with Christ, yet he was itching to experience the rapture), to which I agree; as it is also a fact, that that is what all bible-believing Christians tend to believe, and which has turned out not to be the case. But if they were not deliberately “left in the dark,” about the timing as Daniel was, their time-bound mortal hearts would faint-- for which reason I believe that most of the prophets were denied information about exact time-frames by God, and that it was done so to take their frail humanity and hearts into account.

                              Yes, we may determine some of the other elements of prophetic statements by research and careful study, but God has deliberately made others obscure for reasons which He alone knows. There endth....




                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                My dear 'pillar friends: I'm happy we got some good discussion going. Thanks for the advice on how to highlight PlumBob. I thought that color would look great on your salt mine outfit!

                                I agree with both of your comments (along with Don the Baptist) about timing. The Matthew reference to restoring the kingdom is a good one to illustrate that. In fact that is a great little passage for other things as well. Notice that after spending over three years with Jesus in His ministry, not to mention the 40 days after the resurrection, the very last question the apostles ask of Jesus concerns the restoration of Israel!!! Now that ought to tell folks that it is a very important question. He does NOT tell them "Oy vey, all this time and still you think the kingdom has something to do with the physical realm...did you miss the hard corner on the highway where everything promised of old became spiritualized and now applies to the Gentile Church" He treats their question with respect, and then focuses their efforts on the practical work to be done immediately.

                                My comments were more directed at the notion in some quarters that everything about the future is a great mystery and we cannot know the plan. Then there is the big shock when God does exactly what he has said He would do. I used my little post to underscore the point about earthquakes coming soon, exactly to the mountains of Israel area.

                                Now how about this for coincidences...

                                I posted my comments about Exodus 23 and Deuteronomy this morning very early...even before PlumBob had left for the salt mines. I then had some breakfast and sat down with my wife for our daily devotional time. One little resource we use is Our Daily Bread from RBC Ministries. The Scripture verses for today conern the very section of Exodus that I had just mentioned in the post (Exodus 23:20-33) and the Bible passage for one year study happens to be Deuteronomy 7-9, the other passage I mentioned. Now tell me God does not have a hand in all this!!!

                                ZionGene. The last line in the Daily Bread passage for today March 2 says:
                                "He does not lead me year by year, nor even day by day; But step by step my path unfolds, my Lord directs my way". I pray that the settlers will experience this reality and see God's daily provision for them come to full blossom. And now for the ringer: "Trust God to move your mountain, but keep on climbing ". I don't suppose the person who penned that little line had any idea that a WHOLE LOT OF MOUNTAINS ARE GOING TO START MOVING SOON!!