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  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    PlumBob: I am interested to know on what basis the friend sees the world hitting some profound crisis point (notice I tried to avoid saying the world would be "ending") Is it similar to the lemmings running off the cliff in biology, or does the freight train leave the tracks, etc

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    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Here's another map of the west bank area (I don't like the reference to "apartheid wall" but the settlements are clearly shown). It will be an incredible task to uproot all the blue areas!! I agree with PlumBob that we need to pray that America keeps out of this mess- PS the PDF version is very clear. Note that this map does not show the new fence path which will include Gush Etzion south-west of Jerusalem and Maale Adumin to the east...both these settlements are clear on the map though,

      http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/maps/106.shtml
      Last edited by HSB; 02-21-2005, 10:21 PM.

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      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Quoting HSB: "PlumBob: I am interested to know on what basis the friend sees the world hitting some profound crisis point . . ."

        If I tell ya, you've got to promise that neither you, nor anybody else on this board will yell at me

        He bases is on some cosmological law that he called Drake's Law (I never heard of it, to nobody's surprise). That theory says that the number of intelligent life systems like ours should approximate a number that takes into consideration 8 or 9 things including the number of stars like ours in our galaxy (Milky Way), the number of galaxys in the universe, the number of stars in galaxys like ours that have planet systems, etc, etc.... We know that the astronomers are finding other stars in our galaxy that have planets. The count is somewhere up over 100, I think. So Drake's law would indicate that there are billions, if not trillions (or more) intelligent-life systems like ours in the universe.

        SETI (The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), of course, listens for radio signals from other planets, and has been online for a number of years. They have picked up only one good candidate of radio waves that might have originated from another intellligent-life planet. The signal was short, only a fraction of a second, but apparently consisted of a radio signal that shifted in frequency (down, if I remember correctly) in a way that was not explainable by any known or theorized natural (not "manmade") mechanism of radio-wave modulation. It was recorded twice, at 2 different times, and found by 2 different reviewers, but originated from essentially the same place in the sky.

        Now, he takes it for granted that billions of intelligent-life civilizations have evolved, and that many, if not most, of those would have developed "radio." But SETI hasn't found any of them. Plug all of that into some other (ill-defined) equation, and he comes to the conclusion that an intelligent civilization likely self-destructs approximately 100 years after it has developed the ability to widely broadcast radio waves. The one-hundred year window is sufficiently short, in terms of cosmological time, to represent a mere flash in the pan to us here on Earth, listening for them.

        The inevitable conclusion is that since "radio" as we know it became widely and commonly available in huge quantities in approximately 1930, we've got approximatly 30 more years before our civilization self-destructs.

        Ya got all that?
        Last edited by PlumBob; 02-22-2005, 11:49 AM.
        ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

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        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          I was listening to Jimmy DeYoung's daily comment on prophecy at his site www.prophecytoday.com, and He said something relative to the proposed expulsion of Jews from their homes by Ariel Sharon which puzzles me.

          Frist, he said that Ezekiel says that non-Jews will push Israelis out of the land once again, and he uses chapter 35:12,13 as the basis of his claim.

          I have learned not to rashly dismiss what another brother--especially one of Mr. DeYoung's reputation--says about prophetic matters, but I am straining to see the connection which he makes.

          First of all, Ezekiel chapter 35 appears to be a statement against the Edomites (Mount Seir) and their descendants, at some specific time in history. And in verse 4, God speaks to a nation in the words, "I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate...." Verse 5 refers to a people who had, or has perpetual hatred for the Jews, and the description can be made to fit the attitude of the Palestinians toward Israel today. Then, between verses 6 and 9, the punishment of God for "Mount Seir" is laid out, which may apply to the current situation. BUT in verse 9, God says through Ezekiel, "I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return...." and the "shall not return" appears to me to refer to a nation which--in the words of common bible terminology, shall experience no national restoration. All of which, seems to fit the old Edomite nation which was centered in Mount Seir, today know as Petra

          AND, in verse 10 there seems to be a giant time-frame clue, when it says of these folks, "Because thou hast said, 'These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it...'" Here, I wonder which two nations are the Edomites supposed to be talking about: is it the two kingdoms of Judah and Israel, into which the one nation was divided into in the time of Exekiel, which if be so, then puts this fulfillment of this prophecy to well before the time of Christ. But then, some have seen in this the proof that Israel will one again be divided into two kingdoms, and say that the hint of civil war in Israel today, is based on this very text--to which I say, that I can't see it being supported by this text.

          Now we come to verses 12 and 13.

          In verse 12, Seir is supposed to be gloating over a then present physical desolation of the land of Israel (which in general, has ceased to be). I can only see a possible present-day reference to Israel today, in the words "...They are laid, waste they are given us to consume," which may be so if the Palestinians are given Gaza and parts of Judaea today by Ariel Sharon. But those words were applicable back then too, and the first part of the sentence says, "They (referring to the physical land I suppose) are laid waste" which only accurately described the land up until 1948. Unless of course, the Palestinians will make desolate again, the areas which the Jews evacuate.

          Of course I could be missing something in this text, and I put it to you folks to help me see what it is

          Comment


          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Here's a simple little map of Gaza, from Debka

            http://www.debka.com/photos/988.jpg
            ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

            Comment


            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Hi Floks...

              George has made his position very clear yesterday... He is for a Palestinian State with contiguous territory!!!
              Note Artice from Arutz-7 News...
              Bush: Uproot Jews, Give PLO a Contiguous State
              Politics/Gov´t

              US President George W. Bush told policy makers meeting in Brussels Monday that further Israeli withdrawals from Judea and Samaria must lead to a “viable” and “contiguous" PLO state.
              Bush called on Israel “to freeze settlement activity, help Palestinians build a thriving economy and ensure that a new Palestinian state is truly viable, with contiguous territory on the West Bank.”

              Enunciating a vision that can be attained only by dismantling more Jewish towns and communities in Judea and Samaria, Bush stated bluntly that “a state of scattered territories [for the PLO] will not work.”

              Many Jewish communities, reestablished on ancient biblical sites in territory liberated from the Arabs in the Six-Day War, are located along the main highway linking Arab-populated cities in Judea and Samaria. It is these Jewish towns and villages that will have to be dismantled, according to the Bush vision, to make a 23rd "viable" Arab country in the Middle East.

              Bush even promised that something like this would actually happen, and offered American support: “As Palestinian leaders assume responsibility for Gaza and an increasingly larger territory, we will help them build the economic and political and security institutions needed to govern effectively.”

              Bush said he will direct Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to attend a conference to be hosted by British Prime Minister Tony Blair in London next month “to convey America's strong support for the Palestinian people as they build a democratic state.”

              Among the many entities that oppose a PA state is the Zionist Organization of America. The terrorist war waged by the PA Arabs against Israel, as well as "their culture of anti-Jewish hatred and violence," indicate that a PA state will not be "peaceful and democratic," but rather a terrorist entity, the ZOA has stated. "President Bush promised to end terrorist states, not create new ones," ZOA President Morton Klein said.

              Just 13 years ago, then-US President George W. Bush, Sr. sent a letter of assurance to Israel, stating, "In accordance with the United States' traditional policy, we do not support the creation of an independent Palestinian State."

              Present-day Pres. Bush had a message yesterday for the Arabs as well: “Arab states must end incitement in their own media, cut off public and private funding for terrorism, stop their support for extremist education, and establish normal relations with Israel.” He said that PA leaders should “confront and dismantle terrorist groups, fight corruption, encourage free enterprise, and rest true authority with the people. Only a democracy can serve the hopes of Palestinians and make Israel secure and raise the flag of a free Palestine.”

              Bush’s speech, made at a gathering of academics, business leaders, and diplomats, also touched on the issues of U.S.- European relations, Iraq, Iran, and Syria. The audience received his remarks with subdued applause.
              ===================
              As much as some of us would like to think that George is going to stay back and watch... I think he just stated that he will be involved! And that my dear friends is very frightening... well it could be if we didn't know that to be absent from the body; is to be present with the Lord! How about going Home early!

              Comment


              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                I think it was Dr. Donald Gray Barnhouse, who declared in the late 1940's, after Britain began to hee-haw with its previous commitments to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration, that the dismantling and dissolution of the British Empire started at that point. And beginning with Palestine, and then Ghandi's India, the beat went on, and within 20 years, the sun had set on the British Empire.

                President Bush may just have initiated the beginning of the dissolution of the American Union, if the report in the previous post is correct. One can only pray that God will mercifully change Mr. Bush's attitude toward breaking up of the land area of Israel

                Comment


                • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Don,

                  I asked this question of HSB back a number of pages ago, and he replied with a succinct "I'm not sure" so maybe I'll see how you respond.

                  Given that we think we've fairly well defined the realities of what will happen from a human geo-political standpoint, and we think we've absolutely identified that God is going to step in and intervene, the question now to you - when in the process does the rapture happen?

                  Your thoughts, please.

                  ZionGene, you make an extremely pertinent observation...

                  Ahhh, I see HSB has joined us. What sayest thou?
                  Last edited by PlumBob; 02-22-2005, 02:09 PM.
                  ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                  Comment


                  • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    I just found an extremely interesting commentary - comparing the French Revolution of 200 years ago, to current events. Completely off-topic of this thread, but interesting reading, never-the-less.

                    http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/rasavage/050217
                    ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                    Comment


                    • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      PlumBob...
                      I'm going to plant my feet firmly in mid-air and say definitely maybe!!! Here is where I am at right now... I've read most of the various positions on The Rapture... in every case that takes a specific stance... in every case... there are Scriptural verses that have to be ignored or set aside. I believe that the Rapture date is ambiguous for a very important reason. If we all knew the exact date... we could live any way we wanted to and "make it right" just before the Big Event Day!!! By keeping it sufficiently confusing, we need to be prepared at all times... You know, of course, that there is a Crown awaiting for those who are looking / awaiting for His Coming?
                      Back over to you... PlumBob

                      Comment


                      • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Originally posted by ZionGene
                        President Bush may just have initiated the beginning of the dissolution of the American Union, if the report in the previous post is correct. One can only pray that God will mercifully change Mr. Bush's attitude toward breaking up of the land area of Israel
                        Maybe one of the things that our current president is supposed to do is exactly this thing. As much as we don't want it to really happen, the Bible tells us that eventually every nation will be against Israel. There has to be a starting point and the US just might be it.

                        Every day, it seems we see more and more reports that the US is turning away from Israel and siding with others. And, with that aspect, we are trying to keep these others happy instead of helping Israel do the right thing and oust the Palestinians.

                        Just my two cents worth.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Well, Shelby, at least you and I are sitting on the same side of this playing field I suggested the very same thing, several pages ago. We may not "like" it, but I suspect it's all part of God's overarching plan. I don't ever remember God asking me whether something He had in mind was "convenient" for me.

                          Don, you guys are slipperyer (is that a word?) than greased pigs! Ya gotta remember that I'm one of those "reformed post-tribulationists" It's only very recently that I ever would have considered the possibility of not having to go thru the trib - Whew. Probably my (Southern) Baptist background... Looking forward to that crown, Don...

                          And finally, apparently J. Solana liked what he heard from President Bush -
                          http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=37603

                          And lastly, finally, - I don't know whether it's true or not, but I found here: http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/index.html the following

                          "Discovered later
                          1998
                          Javier Solana's Office of High Representative was created by the EU heads in December of 1998 and, out of over 1100 documents, this document's number was 666."

                          And absolutely, lastly, finally there's quiet an interesting editorial
                          in http://www.euobserver.com/ qouted in part -

                          "Europe can talk - US can act

                          The East-West paradigm that dominated the world for forty years has gone. It is not yet replaced, but its replacement will be something much less orderly or predictable.

                          Half the world’s population lives in south and east Asia, a half which is currently much poorer than America and its closest friends. Maybe that’s a tenable arrangement for the long term, maybe not, but it will become the dominant factor in world politics regardless.

                          In the face of the environmental and social threats of the future, the disagreements between Europe and America are going to be rather small in comparison. Both sides need to understand this.

                          But, at present, only one of those two sides has the constitution that allows for leadership on issues like this. Europe can talk: you can act. Welcome to Europe, Mr President. We need you."
                          Last edited by PlumBob; 02-22-2005, 06:11 PM.
                          ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                          Comment


                          • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            When, in the midst of all this does the rapture occur. Well....

                            Revelation 4:1, and Rev 11:12, both contain the words “Come up hither.” The latter instance is definitely a resurrection call to the Two Witnesses—as I believe the first one to John represents. John is suddenly ushered into heaven, where, among other beings, he sees the “Twenty And Four Elders,” who I believe, represent the newly-arrived main section of the Church. Therefore, John’s taking up represents the main harvest section of the First Resurrection, in my opinion.

                            The First Fruits section of this First Resurrection, comprised Christ and a relatively small group of believers. The Rapture Of The Church, the main section of the First Resurrection, is just ahead of us. The gleanings section of the First Resurrection will be collected, after the sickle of judgment has passed over the earth, during the Great Tribulation

                            The relevance of this call to John—who, in my opinion typifies the church—is such, that I expect those to be the actual words, uttered by the Archangel, in whatever language, which each individual believer in Christ will hear, at the main harvest of the first resurrection, “…when the trumpet shall sound, and dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” I believe that John in Revelation 4:1 heard the voice of the same archangel, who will call to the Church at the Rapture, and in the same words.

                            I am not a dispensationalist--as Jesus was not--but I believe that the order of the letters to the churches, relative to the call to John immediately after them in Revelation 4:1, speaks of an order in the future, when the church will be extricated, before any and all of the events predicted after John was taken in the spirit up into heaven—“before that great and terrible Day Of The Lord come.” That is one reason why I believe that no one alive on this side of the rapture, can, or will discern with certainty, the identity of individuals and groups beyond Revelation 4, beside maybe Christ Himself. Because I believe that nothing beyond the end of Revelation chapter 3 can materialize before the church (represented in John) is taken out.

                            PlumBob, if you ask me—which you haven’t—when, in the light of the present hastening of events will that glorification of the saints take place, I say that it will take place at a point when the Lord will “feel obliged” to move with overwhelming force, and let lose against those who would destroy Israel. He will extricate the church to save it from the ensuing sparks that fly.

                            So look for the tightening of the noose around Israel by the nations, then suddenly, John 4:1 is fulfilled in the Rapture, and God quickly and energetically fufills the Book Of Revelation in short order.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Originally posted by ZionGene
                              PlumBob, if you ask me—which you haven’t
                              LOL -

                              No, my friend, BUT YOU WERE NEXT!!!

                              Thanks for the note. I rather like your logic.

                              BTW, ZG, your PM box is full again!
                              Last edited by PlumBob; 02-22-2005, 07:22 PM.
                              ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                              Comment


                              • Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                PlumBob...
                                I am a strong believer in the interaction of the Old & New Testaments... One cannot know the New without a knowledge of the Old, However, One cannot know the Old, without a knowledge of the New.

                                We, on this side of the Cross are in the Light-of-the-Cross. The Light-of-the-World was nailed to that Cross, and when you put Light on one side of a solid object, it produces a Shadow... This particular Shadow goes all the way back to the beginning of Geneses. Let me give you an example then a picture that may help you gain some new insights into what is happening here near the end-of-time.
                                First Example...
                                In Geneses 22, we have the testing of Abraham's Faith...
                                As he and Isaac, his Son start up the Mountains of Moriah... Isaac asks the Question... "Behold the Fire and the Wood... but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" [Verse #7]... Abraham responds... "God will provide Himself a Lamb..."

                                As you know, Isaac becomes a picture of 'Christ' as he obeys his Father, even unto death... The 19-yr old lets his Father tie him up and put him on the Altar. After the Angel stops Abraham from drawing the Knife across his Son's throat... He sees a Ram caught in a Thicket by its horns... What a wonderful picture of Christ again... The Ram is a 'substitute' for Isaac, it was caught by 'Thorns-in-the-brow'... What a picture!

                                However... A Ram is not a Lamb... Therefore the Ram that was provided, was not the Lamb that was foretold... Abraham named the place... "Jehovah-jireh" meaning... In the Mount of the Lord it shall be seen... Why didn't he say In the Mount of the Lord it has been seen... After all, the Ram had been provided. Ah... but the Ram was not the Lamb... The Lamb was yet to come... It was thousands of years later... when John-the-Baptist [a good relation of mine... Brother-in-Christ]... on seeing Jesus coming down to be Baptized... Exclaims... "Behold the Lamb-of-God"... Abraham’s prediction has now been fulfilled! The Old & New Testaments have been shown to be parts of a continuous whole. The very place were God stopped Abraham from Sacrificing his son... God Himself did not hold back, but Jesus His First-Born was sacrificed... At the very same place... God had now in His Son provided the Lamb!

                                Example #2...
                                After fleeing from Esau to Laban [his Uncle on Rebecca’s side], Jacob makes a deal to work for seven years to obtain Rachel to wife... As you know at the Wedding it is Leah that he marries... The great Trickster has now been tricked himself. Laban suggests that for a second contract, he could get to marry his true love - Rachel. Jacob agrees to an additional seven-year contract... however, Laban says... "You can have her in seven days"... why seven days? Because the Marriage Feast lasts seven days. Daniel tells us that a day is like a year in prophecy. SOOooo.... now we have a very interesting picture in the Old Testament of a very controversial element near the end-of-time.

                                Let me paint the picture... We have a Groom come for a Bride... Once taken away their commences a seven-day Marriage Feast... At the conclusion of that Seven-Day Marriage Feast... The Groom gets to come for his true love... {We come with Him to rescue His Chosen People [True Love]}... just a picture... Oh! But consider the implications... You may be correct in that once the Bride is taken The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place... Lasting Seven days [years]... while the Winepress is in progress! At the end of Seven years We come with Him to rescue His People [True Love]!!!

                                Comments?
                                Last edited by Don Brooks; 02-22-2005, 08:27 PM.

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