Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

We had once toyed briefly w/ the idea of why the US might have had such an unmistakable shift in policy, in regards to Israel's Palestinian problem.

Obviously President Bush has numerous concerns -

The Green Light

New York Sun Staff Editorial
February 18, 2005

President Bush was asked yesterday, "What's your level of concern that if Iran does go down the road to building a nuclear weapon, that Israel will attack Iran to try to prevent that from happening?" Here's how he responded: "Well, first of all, Iran has made it clear they - that they don't like Israel, to put it bluntly. And the Israelis are concerned about whether or not Iran develops a nuclear weapon, as are we, as should everybody. And so the objective is to solve this issue diplomatically, is to work with friends, like we're doing with France, Europe, and - I mean, France, Germany, and Great Britain, to continue making it clear to the Iranians that developing a nuclear weapon will be unacceptable.

"But" - for it seems here that the president of America was just getting warmed up in his reply - "clearly, if I was the leader of Israel, and I listened to some of the statements by the Iranian ayatollahs about - that regarded my security of my country, I'd be concerned about Iran having a nuclear weapon, as well. And in that Israel is our ally, and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if - if there's a - if their security is threatened."

. . . If the Israelis were looking for a green light to go after Iran's nuclear program, they just got one, big time.

The prior signals, for those who may not have been paying attention, included Vice President Cheney's January 20 interview with Don Imus, in which Mr. Cheney said, "if, in fact, the Israelis became convinced the Iranians had significant nuclear capability, given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first, and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards. "And the report by David Twersky on Page 1 of the November 26, 2004, New York Sun that, at a dinner party two weeks before the election, President Bush said in reference to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iran, "It is Israeli policy not to let that happen," adding, "Don't go telling anyone I gave a green light."

Giving a green light and not telling is different from not giving a green light at all. Yesterday, Mr. Bush went further. . . if either the Israelis or the Americans intend to strike Iranian nuclear facilities, they'd do better to stop talking about it and just go ahead and do it. If they don't intend to, it only increases the premium on other action to help change the regime in Tehran before it is too late."

Edited somewhat for brevity.

I found this at http://www.nysun.com/article/9475

which I linked to from a blog - http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

[Don Brooks]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

HSB...

While I cannot argue with your perspective that Jeremiah is talking of the Millenial time-frame, I offer the following for your consideration...

At firat before the Fall... God Himself walked & talked with Adam in the Garden.
Then the Fall...
The Angel of the Lord talked with Man [Adam to the Birth of Christ]... The Word of the Lord came to... and The Spirit of the Lord fell on [external]
During this period the Ark was commissioned... Moses built it... The symbol of God's presence. [Touch it and you died].
Note: At the time of Christ the First Temple had been destroyed and as you have rightly observed, Jeremiah supervised the hiding of the Elements from the First Temple and he buried the Tabernacle as well.... They were very well hidden as they could not be found at the Building of the Second Temple...

I find it very interesting that there was no Ark in the Second Temple... the Temple that Jesus came to Worship in... The Holy-of-Holies was empty and in darkness... no "Symbol of God's Presence" as Emanuel [God with us] was walking around outside. The same can be said for the original Menorah [Light Stand] as the Light-of-the-World was walking around outside. Likewise The original Table of Showbread [Bread-of-Life] as the Bread-of-Life was walking around outside.

After His death & resurrection, The Spirit takes up residence within us [His Saints]... We have become the Tabernacle within which He dwells [Now internal, no longer external]... SOOooo.... as at the time of Christ the Ark wasn't necessary... I believe that it continues to not be necessary as He dewlls within His Saints and therefore is Present here on Earth... what need is there then for the Symbol of His presence?

These are just some thoughts that have come to mind... What say you?

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Don the Baptist: You mention that there was no need of the Ark, Menorah etc in the Second Temple because God Himself was walking around outside. Jesus was born around 4 B.C. yet the second Temple had been erected in the days of Zerubabbel some 500+ years earlier. What about that time period? The scarlet thread turned white on a regular basis until after Jesus' death, thus indicating that God was accepting of the sacrifices until at least 30 A.D. Also the giant Menorah was still in the Temple. That's the one that is pictured on Titus Arch in Rome, showing the loot captured in 70 A.D.

The Jews believe that the Ark etc were never relocated to the Second Temple from their place of hiding because the nation was not worthy of having them back during this time frame. Yet they were "hidden" with a view to being "found" at some time. For Christians we believe that the Holy Spirit's Shekinah glory dwells in each believer now as connected with the infilling of the Spirit. But I was speaking from the Orthodox Jewish point of view..that in their extreme hour of need, the Ark etc may represent an incredibly powerful set of symbols to call the Jews home from around the world. That's my own 2 shekels worth, but I would not fight with anyone over this opinion. Whether the Ark is found or not, we still face a chaotic preiod ahead in Israel and the world. Hang on for the ride!

PS I believe from my reading that God will in fact "recognize" the legitimacy of another Temple that is constructed. Otherwise it would be hard to argue that the Temple had in fact become desolate under the actions of the AntiChrist. As an aside this is why some people believe that the Temple that gets desecrated is in fact the Church itself (since we are the new Temple) through apostacy, but that is another thread discussion for others to follow up...

[Don Brooks]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

HSB..

Thanks for your insights... I agree with you wholeheartedly that there will be a Third Temple. That it will have the Sacrificial System put back into function, and that it is this Temple [real physical building] that is desecrated by the anti-christ by having his statue placed into the Holy-of-Holies.... [we know this is possible as it was already done once back approximately 164 - 160 BC with Antiochus Epiphanies]... as predicted by Daniel. I think that it is this Temple that Jesus has re-dedicated for His use in Jerusalem... He takes up residence in His Temple on His Mountain... And that is not too far away... now that's exciting... However, as our thread addresses... there is going to be a whole lot of real bad "stuff" happen in between!!! Millions are going to die in ways that seem unimaginable... but as we have seen from past 'Posts' quoting Scripture... Blood flows as high as the Horse's Bridle... [Four to five feet high???]... Now that is really bad 'stuff'!!! The culminating incident to most catastrophic events seems so non-consequentional in itself... the proverbial... Straw that broke the Camel's back!!! Might it be that the uprooting of Orthodox Jews from 'their' Land who cry out to Him for protection... be that culminating – non-consequentional - "Straw"? I fear that we are in for some terrible consequences if these events continue to unfold as they currently appear to be unfolding. God... Will NOT be mocked! At some point He will show His hand, and Whomever is in the way is going to experience His indignation... "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God"!!!


I am almost breathless as I see the speed at which events are unfolding... I shared with my Friday Night Bible Study Group some of the latest 'Posts' from this Thread... You would have had to have been there to see the looks of consternation, and hear the exclamations as they began to realize what we have been discussing... Time really is running out! Events are in fact alligning with the Prophetic... And so much has already happened in our Life-Time!!! I do believe that we are the Generation that will see Messiah Return!!! Wow! What a ride!

[Lay it to Heart]

Does the ark exist today?

Revelation 11:19 says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." During the tribulation the ark will end up in heaven. It appears that it has not been destroyed. But where is it now, on earth or in heaven?

[Don Brooks]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Hi all...

I just had to share this "Good News" Story from Israel Current News Update.
======================
WHERE THERE IS LIFE, THERE IS HOPE

The Efrat organization, dedicated to preventing the number one cause of death in Israel—abortion, continues to register successes. In the year 2004, Efrat saved the lives of 1,658 Jewish children in Israel by providing social and financial support to mothers who had planned to abort for socio-economic and related reasons. The number of successes in 2003 was 1,448.

Recently, a story was publicized in a work entitled Aleinu L'Shabe'ach (We Must Praise) by Rabbi Zilberstein of Bnei Brak. Though the names have been changed, the facts are accurate, as testified to by more than one person. The incident occurred as follows:

Yoav, a young IDF (Israeli Defense Force) soldier was stationed in the city of Chevron. Suddenly, he was shot by an Arab sniper and left for dead. As it was four o'clock in the morning and no imminent attack was expected, no one was awake to hear the shot and rush to his aid. It appeared as though Yoav was doomed to bleed to death before anybody would ever find him. His short life would come to a tragic silent end.

One other soldier, however, did happen to hear something. Though not totally sure, he suspected it might be a rifle shot, so he went to investigate. He spotted Yoav, who was lying on the ground, bleeding to death. He immediately began to stabilize Yoav's wound and arrange for emergency transport to a medical facility. It took time for help to get to the scene, so he needed to apply manual pressure and any other trick he could think of to keep Yoav alive in the interim - he was literally holding Yoav's life in his hands.

Eventually, Yoav arrived at a proper medical facility where he was treated by surgeons. Yoav's parents were notified and rushed to the hospital. The doctors told them that had it not been for the immediate and appropriate actions of the other soldier, their son Yoav would definitely not have survived. It was indeed a miracle that the other soldier heard what no one else heard and managed to locate Yoav as quickly as he did. They went to thank him, but he had already left the hospital.

After Yoav was home recuperating, and everyone was settled, they called the army to find out the name of the other soldier so they could thank him personally. Unfortunately, the other soldier's name had not been recorded in the incident report, so they now had no way of ever contacting him.

Yoav's parents owned a makolet (small grocery store) in Kiryat Malachi, so they put up a poster in their store, describing the miracle that occurred and asking if anyone knew the identity of Yoav's savior. They figured that Israel is a small country and someone might know someone who knows something.

Months passed with no response. Finally after a year, a woman entered the store and saw the sign. She was positive that her son Doron had mentioned such an account. She took out her cell phone and called Doron on the spot. Sure enough, he remembered the incident quite well –he had saved Yoav's life.

Soon all the families gathered together for a joyful, tearful “reunion.” Doron's mother pulled Yoav's mother aside and told her, "There is a specific reason why I came to your store today. You don't remember me, but twenty years ago, I was standing in your makolet feeling lost and forlorn. You and your wonderful husband noticed how sad I looked and asked me what was the matter. I explained that I was pregnant and was overwhelmed. There were so many unbearable difficulties, financially, socially and emotionally. I had decided that the only way out was to have an abortion.

"You both stopped everything, and calmly and lovingly sat with me. You listened to me. Then you offered so much encouragement and support. Because of you, everything began to look different, and I chose to keep my baby. I no longer live around here, but I happened to be passing through and I figured it would be nice to visit your store again to thank you once again for all that you did for me. The name of that precious baby was Doron."

"My beloved Doron, who would not have been born were it not for you, grew up to save your son Yoav's life."

(By Tvi Binn of Efrat-CRIB, Shorashim, February 17, 2005)

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

I'm sitting here listening to the end of a radio archive program on http://www.israelnationalradio.com/ by Tovia Singer, called Former Muslim Now Dean of Baptist Seminary Speaks Out.

Very Interesting! Any of you who haven't heard it, it would sure be worth your hour.

The guest was a fellow named Ergun Caner - the dean of Liberty University's seminary (Baptist). He's a converted Muslim. I was impressed when Tovia asked him to "speak to the Jewish people living in Gaza & Hebron"

A fairly accurate quote - not word-for-word -

"Whether my people (Muslims) stand against you or not, God is on your side. Israel is the holy land of God. Israel is indivisible, it is eternal, let the world try to take your land, God will stand with you, as will many of us . . ." (emphasis added)

Sounds like he'd totally agree w/ the major premise of this thread!

Parenthetically, I found this little map of Israel - might be handy, if this thread continues on -

http://www.foxnews.com/images/154468...350_israel.jpg

Compliments of Fox News

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

The news today that Israel's cabinet has voted to destroy dozens of Jewish settlements in Judaea and Samaria, is now no more news. I can imagine God complaining again as He once in did in Isaiah 3:12, "O my people, they that lead thee, cause thee to err," and I could not help noticing the lame excuse given by one of the cabinet ministers who voted for this plan, who said that she did so only because she did not want to "miss an historic moment." I began to wonder what that rationale had to do with the rightness or wrongness of the proposed expulsion of Jews.

I am sure that many bible-believing, God-fearing people, in and out of Israel, have warned our government here in the United States, and the powers that be in Israel, that they are on a collision course with the Magen Avraham (Shield of Abraham) who gave him victory over the mighty Chedorlaomer, head of a confederacy of four great nations in Genesis 14; the Jehovah Nisi of Moses who defeated the original Edomite Amalekites and swore to finish them off: and the Lord of Hosts of Hezekiah, who drew the breath out of the nostrils of 180000 Assyrian men in one night; and who as late as six weeks ago, showed how He could flex his muscle, when He made the sea rise in a 20-odd foot bump, along about 2000 miles of shore line.

We have done what we can. We have alerted folks to the danger, and it saddens us when we remember that these are our people and kin, who seem hellbent--like fools--rushing "to the correction of the stocks." We empathize with the people in Gaza and Gush Katif, and such areas, and say we have done the best we can. Now we call out to the Lord in the words of Psalm 78:16-23, to, among other things plead His own cause.

Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that
the foolish people have blasphemed thy name. 19 O deliver not the soul of thy
turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever. 20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty. 21 O let not the oppressed return ashamed: let the poor and needy praise thy name. 22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily. 23 Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually.

[Issachar]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

"Isaiah 3:12, "O my people, they that lead thee, cause thee to err,""

Wow .... very good, pertinent scripture ZG.

"... and I could not help noticing the lame excuse given by one of the cabinet ministers who voted for this plan, who said that she did so only because she did not want to "miss an historic moment.""

Lame is a gross understatement. Here we have once again, a politician trying to build / leave a (barf) 'legacy'. If a politician, or anyone else for that matter, leaves a 'legacy', it should be a by-product of what they did. It should not be an intention. They should just do what they believe is right and how it goes down in the books is how it goes down in the books.

"I began to wonder what that rationale had to do with the rightness or wrongness of the proposed expulsion of Jews."

Nothing. "rationale" has to do with "rational thinking". This is not rational thinking. As a non-Christian, it might conceivably be "rational" if they really believe the whole "peace" thing ...... but to not "miss an historic moment"?? sheeesshh...

Issachar

[ZionGene]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.



In response to our duty, not only to be "watchers," but also to "Comfort ye, comfort ye My People," (Isaiah 40:1), I invite the folks in Israel--who might feel so very vulnerable and so abaondonned and so small at this time--to "look to the hills" as David did, and to do so in some of his words of the Psalms. I have highlighted some sections which I believe speak very particularly to the plight of the settlers in Israel today


Psalm 35:18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. 19 [B]Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause[/B]. 20 For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land. 21 Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it. 22 This thou hast seen, O LORD: keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me. 23 Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.

Psalm 59:2 Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. 3 For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD. 4 They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold.

Psalm 74:18 Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name. 19 O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever. 20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty. 21 O let not the oppressed return ashamed: let the poor and needy praise thy name. 22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily. 23 Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Latest news from Debka: looks like a bigger role for EU ahead. Also it appears now that Ariel will be abandoned (I believe there are 30,000 inhabitants there) as the security wall gets aligned closer to the 1967 border

extract from Debka.com (PS Watch out for Solana!!!)

The American Front. In her latest telephone conversation with Mahmoud Abbas, secretary of state Condoleezza Rice repeated three times: Dismantle, dismantle, dismantle. But during her visit earlier this month she - and subsequently US security coordinator Lt.-Gen William E Ward - carried the same message to Sharon:

A. We don’t believe Abbas will make it. That is why we haven’t invited him to the White House and the funds allocated to him will only be forwarded if he takes real action against terror. From what we have seen thus far, he has not done anything at all. He simply hides behind Mohammed Dahlan’s talks with your defense minister (Mofaz). Dahlan has not lived up to any of his promises to us.

B. We are therefore standing back from your dispute and will confine ourselves to being observers. If there is anything we need to say, we will say it.

C. If you need help in implementing your disengagement plan, get back to us and we will see what we can do, but we accept no responsibility for the move.

D. So that Washington can keep its distance, an American diplomatic coordinator will soon be appointed to complement General Ward’s function in security. According to our sources, a middle-ranking official will be chosen to downgrade the Bush administration’s engagement in the dispute and keep it off the desks of the Oval Office and the secretary of state.

The Bush administration has decided to remain aloof - if not quite wash its hands of Abbas – because of his decision to forego any attempt to dismantle or disarm the terrorists, after failing to persuade them even to join a temporary ceasefire. His plan of action only goes as far as absorbing terrorist manpower in the Palestinian Authority’s security forces. But every attempt made in the past to turn terrorists into security or police officers and wean them away from terror with new uniforms and paychecks has failed.

The European Front, Following the American step back from the Middle East dispute, Sharon sent his top aide Dov Weisglass to London and Brussels instead of Washington to report on the government’s pullback decision.

This mission went ahead despite the fact that the European Union foreign affairs executive Javier Solana conveyed a secret assurance to Abbas. He advised him not to be dismayed by the cool wind blowing from Washington, because immediately after Israel completes its pullback, the EU would stage a big international conference to work on the final-status accord between Israel and the Palestinians.

What this means, according to DEBKAfile’s Middle East experts, is that the Europeans have given Abu Mazen the means to duck the American demand to dismantle terrorists.

So keen is Solana on his Middle East initiative that on the day of the Hariri assassination in Beirut, the Spanish ambassador in Tel Aviv was ordered to fly to Damascus via Cyprus for a briefing on Abbas’ situation to Spanish minister Miguel Moratinos who was then visiting Damascus.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

here's the part about Ariel and Hebron: (from Debka.com)

The 8,000 evacuees have been given five months notice to accept the payouts on offer and go quietly or wait to be forcibly evicted under an elaborate evacuation plan requiring 6,000 policemen to remove them bodily, backed by several thousand armed soldiers for security.

The second decision confirmed by Israeli ministers later in the session approved the southern section of West Bank defense barrier after its route was amended. The revised route encloses 7% of West Bank territory instead of 16% in the original blueprint. The fence will encircle the Gush Etzion cluster and town of Maale Adummim south and east of Jerusalem. Both are bound to the capital as virtual satellites. But the town of Ariel further north will be excluded as will the Israeli communities of southern Mt. Hebron where the fence will follow the pre-1967 route.

Although this is essentially a security fence, its route suggests that in future bargaining, these communities may find themselves in the same boat as their fellows in the Gaza Strip.

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Sorry folks-can't help myself. This just in from Arutz Sheva: (wow!)

Following Sunday's overwhelming cabinet approval to dismantle 25 Jewish communities, Yesha rabbis said, "Also in Sodom there were man's laws, but the Almighty's law overturned everything," referring to the Biblical description of fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

[JudyAnn]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

Questions...

Do you mean the security fence is being built around certain Jewish enclaves in the West Bank? It is being built to protect them, right?
The Gush Etzion cluster and town of Maale Adummim are made up of Jewish settlers and they would be allowed to stay??? I'm trying to get all of this straight in my head and it's a little confusing. Also....would the Gaza strip be given to the Palestinians too? The map Plum Bob posted helps, but I'm not sure where these clusters are.

Thanks for any replies! I won't be back on until late tonight to view them.....I have to go teach my Cubbies in Awana!

By the way....this thread is fascinating and so pertinent!!

In Him,
Judy

[Guest]

Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

JudyAnn: you asked "The Gush Etzion cluster and town of Maale Adummim are made up of Jewish settlers and they would be allowed to stay??? I'm trying to get all of this straight in my head and it's a little confusing. Also....would the Gaza strip be given to the Palestinians too?"

answer: in the initial plan, the Gaza settlements (about 20 of them in Gush Katif) are to be evacuated in July along with 4 small settlements in the top end of the West Bank near Jenin. I think that adds up to about 9,000 people involved.

However that is just the start. Phase 2 will involve making the "security wall" the defacto boundary between Israel and the new Palestinian Arab state. There are a large number of Jewish communities that are conserned they will end up on the arab side of the fence. If you look at a map in the back of your Bible you will immediately notice that the original main sites in Israel of old are smack in the middle of the west bank (eg Shiloh where the Tabernacle stood for 369 years and Samuel heard the voice of God as a small boy, hebron where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are buried along with their wives etc. Ariel is a comunity close to where Joshua is buried in Ephraim. There are many many thousands of Jewish settlers in these communities that appear to be vulnerable to the deal.

I will go out on a limb here JudyAnn and say "It simply is not going to happen!" The "Hope of the Settlers" will arise and get "physically involved" in this mess! HSB