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Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    article from Jerusalem Post: keep your eyes open for a unilateral Israeli withdrawal to a defined wall line: HSB

    Nov. 9, 2005 0:43 | Updated Nov. 9, 2005 23:35
    Sharon wants to draw new borders

    Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wants to advance the election so he can return to power and decide where Israel's final borders are going to be, his advisers told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

    They said that although Sharon was currently saying that, after disengagement, the internationally brokered road map was the only diplomatic plan on the table, he had not ruled out a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank in the long run.

    "There is no doubt that Sharon wants to draw the borders," one adviser said. "Sharon thinks that only he can do it because he knows the land and this is his historic mission. He looks around and sees no other potential Israeli leader who can do it. It will be difficult, but it's what the nation wants and it's what the world wants."

    Another adviser said that if the Palestinian Authority does not fulfill the road map and all diplomatic talks on a bilateral agreement with the PA fail, "he is not ruling out deciding the borders in the future without the Palestinians."

    for full article go to jerusalem post.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Amazing....saber rattling. I see this happening and still have to rub my eyes...WOW.. This ties in with several other threads about Syria, the influx of terrorists from Syria into Iraq, Isaiah 17, WMD in Syria.......

    Originally posted by Don Brooks
    [B]Hello again folks...
    Secretary Rice likewise sees the problems in Syria – that we helped to create – as an opportunity to advance our Middle Eastern agenda. In recent testimony she stated that it was always the administration’s intent to redesign the greater Middle East, and Iraq was only one part of that plan. And once again we have been told that all options are still on the table for dealing with Syria – including war.

    The statement that should scare all Americans (and the world) is the assurance by Secretary Rice that the President needs no additional authority from Congress to attack Syria. She argues that authority already has been granted by the resolutions on 9/11 and Iraq.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Here comes the new border:
    from Arutz Sheva

    PM Tours Partition Route: "We Won´t Abandon You"
    11:16 Nov 09, '05 / 7 Cheshvan 5766
    By Hillel Fendel

    Ariel Sharon, touring the route of the anti-terror partition being built between Judea/Samaria and the rest of Israel, rebuffed complaints that it is too close to Jewish houses.

    Prime Minister Sharon took a guided tour yesterday of the partition - a tall concrete wall in many places, but a chain-link fence in most others - beginning in Beit Aryeh, on the western border of the Shomron and 15 kilometers east of Ben Gurion International Airport. He then continued southward to Modiin, and from there further south-east to Ramot and Mevaseret Zion.

    Near the northwestern Jerusalem suburb of Ramot, where parts of the wall are not yet built, it was revealed that a dispute between the General Security Service (Shabak) and the Defense Ministry is holding things up. The Shabak says that the Arab village of Beit Iksa, with some 10,000 residents, must not be included on the Israeli side of the fence, presumably because of the village's preponderance of terrorists and sympathizers. The Defense Ministry, on the other hand, fearing Supreme Court suits and intervention, is in favor of including Beit Iksa within the route.

    During Sharon's tour, in which IDF and police officers took part, Partition Administration head Danny Tirzah told Sharon that the dispute is holding up wall construction around northwestern Jerusalem. However, he said, the understanding at present is that the hostile village should remain on the Israeli side of the wall.

    Sharon rebuffed complaints by local Jewish municipal leaders from Mevaseret Zion and Har Adar who said that the partition is dangerously close to their schools and public buildings.

    "I am not bothered by a distance of 300 meters [as the leaders said] or 600 meters from the fence," Sharon said breezily. "Israel has no intention of putting itself at the mercies of the Palestinian population, and it will be the measures that we will take which will enable the Israelis to live here. I do not suggest changing the route of the partition again just because of the danger of infiltration."

    Col. (ret.) Moshe Leshem, head of the Gamla Shall Not Fall Again organization, continues to be infuriated by the fence. "That which I wrote 4-5 years ago is still true today," he told Arutz-7 today. "The partition is merely political, and is a dangerous illusion that has nothing to do with security. Whoever wants to infiltrate can simply take a pair of scissors and cut his way through; most of the partition is not made up of concrete walls [except around Jerusalem - ed.]"

    "The political ramifications are clear," Leshem said. "The fence demarcates the borders back to what they were before the 1967 Six Day War, more or less, with the help of the Supreme Court, which keeps moving it back closer to the 1967 border. Those on the extreme left are of course happy about this, but there are those on the right who, either out of foolishness or laziness to face the facts, who are ignoring the fact that this fence/wall will end up being the future border of Israel."

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Is there something going on here?
    Read for yourself and ask Him for understanding... If anyone lack wisdom, let him ask of Me... God is good, and this admonition has no restrictions... SOOooo... ask!
    Mt. Zion Handover: President Denies, Reports Persist

    By Hillel Fendel

    President Katzav's office categorically denies any intention to sign an agreement to give over parts of Mt. Zion to the Catholic Church.Arutz-7 has received a copy of the alleged agreement to do so.

    The proposed contract reads as follows:
    "The State of Israel hands over to the Holy See the use of the Cenacle [the room of the event known as the Last Supper, above King David's tomb - ed.], of the access path to it, and of the spaces adjacent to it... It is the Holy See's intention to inform the Bishops - and through them the world's Priests - that the Catholic Church has been given the use of the Cenacle, inviting them to visit the Holy Place together with their faithful... The Holy See hands over this use of the Cenacle to the Custody of the Holy Land [which acts on behalf of the Holy See]... [which] will keep the Cenacle open from 6 AM to 8 AM for the celebration of the Holy Mass... Official liturgical celebrations of non-Catholic Churches can take place only upon prior written permission by the Custody of the Holy Land."

    The proposed agreement stipulates that the Holy See will preserve the historic character of the site and keep it open to pilgrims and tourists, and that Israel will provide for the safety of the site.

    A Foreign Ministry official said, “Israel is not prepared to relinquish its jurisdiction over this area” - but he admitted that a blueprint of a possible agreement with the Vatican has been received.

    At present, since shortly after the Six-Day War in 1967, the Diaspora Yeshiva is located on Mt. Zion, and warns of the catastrophic implications for Israel if the deal goes through. "This is an enormous issue that is being pushed through without any public debate whatsoever," Yeshiva Director Rabbi Shabtai Herman told Tovia Singer on IsraelNationalRadio. He also spoke on INR's Stutz and Fleisher show.

    He explained that if the Catholic Church receives control of the area, just a few hundred yards from the Temple Mount and adjacent to the Old City walls, it will turn it into "the international center for Catholics all around the world, and if the pope just gives the word, Christians will be flocking over here en masse." In addition, he noted, "there are many different religions here, and we have respect for all of them, but giving control to the Catholics will cause terrible friction."

    Rabbi Mordechai Goldstein, who founded and still runs the Diaspora Yeshiva, officially known as Yeshiva Toras Yisrael. He elaborated in a follow-up discussion with Arutz-7:
    "According to their bible, the land is to return to the Christians, and 144,000 Jews are to return to Mt. Zion. So their plan is for them to take control of the site, and then to announce that they are holding a mass reenactment of the Last Supper, with [all types of religious rituals], and to invite millions of Christians to come to Jerusalem and celebrate." He said that this means much tourism money for Israel, and that someone in the Israeli government is apparently very interested in making this happen.

    The King David's Tomb complex is a complex of buildings of some 100,000 square feet where David, Solomon and others kings of Judea are said to be buried. "It is certainly one of the holiest spots in the Land of Israel," Rabbi Herman said. "We've already given away the Temple Mount and the Machpelah Cave, except for here and there when we're allowed in; now they want to give Mt. Zion away as well? For thousands of years, this area was almost always totally closed off to Jews. G-d gave it back to us in 1948, but parts of it were still in range and sight of Jordanian snipers and were not in full use. After 1967, Rabbi Goldstein founded the Diaspora Yeshiva here - and it became an island of holiness, the first yeshiva for baalei teshuvah [newly religious] in Israel; we were there day and night learning Torah. Rabbi Goldstein was almost prophetic in establishing this yeshiva at that time at that spot; destiny from above intertwined him with Mt. Zion."

    President Katzav's office categorically denies any knowledge of plans to sign away the King David's complex, or intention to do so during his trip to the Vatican later this month. Despite this, Christian newspapers in Italy and around the world are replete with reports that such a deal is in the works. According to the reports, Israel will receive control of an 800-year-old synagogue in Toledo, Spain, known now as Santa Maria, in exchange for David's Tomb.

    In an open letter to President Katzav, Shlomo Alfassa, Executive-Director of the
    International Society for Sephardic Progress, ridiculed this idea: "When the Jews of Toledo prayed each morning, they faced east towards Jerusalem. It was not Toledo that they desired, but the Land of Israel, which was still unobtainable. Now, we have Jerusalem, we can go to the holy sites and we can live in the land. If those who built that synagogue knew that this abandoned building in Christian Spain was being traded for a piece of real estate in the Land of Israel, they would roll over in their graves. Today, the Santa Maria Synagogue is nothing but an empty shell, a tourist stop in a city where no Jews remain."

    Rabbi Herman said that the above plan is merely the first step of a larger plan to turn all of Mt. Zion into a Christian site. He explained that the lower level of the complex, containing many chambers, rooms, passageways and the like, has long been under the control of Israeli bodies such as the Lands Authority, and that half of the area was assigned to the Diaspora Yeshiva.

    Rabbis Goldstein and Herman explained that over the years, the yeshiva has used the area for classrooms, housing, and other needs. However, they said, Jerusalem Chief Engineer Ari Sheetrit has made some "threatening" visits of late, together with other city officials. The rabbis said that Sheetrit has implied very strongly that the yeshiva is "not using the area efficiently," and that the city plans to take it over.

    Rabbi Herman said, "Our information, supported by many sources, is that this entire area is going to be given over to a tourism promotional company fronted by a man named David Bertoldi. Bertoldi has come with a supposed tourism project to take ownership of this area, close it off, and make it into a project that will serve Catholic tourists - and then anyone who wants to recite a chapter of Psalms will have to pay a $10 entrance fee, except for two hours in the morning. Bertoldi professes to be Jewish, but to the best of our information, he is a 'mumar,' someone who has transferred his faith elsewhere. He claims to be an independently wealthy man, but in fact is really just a straw man for -- the Pope! We have lots of information that he is in the pay of the local Francescan brothers, headed by Father Pierre Batista, and as far as we know they've already paid him $70,000, and he goes in to the various offices buying his way through the bureaucracy."

    Arutz-7 phoned the Jerusalem monastery that Batista headed until a year ago, and spoke with his replacement, who said that he knew Bertoldi, though "he is not a member of our congregation." Asked if Bertoldi works for the Francescans, he said, "That is hard to say."

    Rabbi Herman bemoaned the secrecy in which the entire affair and attempted buy-out is being shrouded: "Who knows if this isn't just the tip of the iceberg? Why is this not being brought up for public debate, among the Torah Sages, the Knesset, public opinion? Let it be put on hold until then! How can King David's Tomb itself, in the heart of Jerusalem, be passed along to the Pope, without even a whisper of discussion?!"

    MK Benny Elon (National Union), who served twice as Minister of Tourism, told Arutz-7's Hebrew newsmagazine, "This issue was raised several years ago. When I was Tourism Minister, I made it clear to a representative of the Pope that we would allow them to use one room with a side entrance that would not bother the yeshiva. But under no circumstances would we allow the transfer of ownership. But they said they want ownership, and that the Pope sees this place as the second-holiest, after the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. We have to be very strong and not give in to the Vatican on this." He said that at present, Christian groups come in and pray there, but the "sovereignty is ours."

    MK Elon said that the denial by President Katzav's office is "a major achievement, and was the result of public pressure. What has to be done now is to try to involve the Prime Minister, despite our troubled personal relations with him. He must intervene to ensure that the Vatican not gain control over such a significant site."

    Rabbis Goldstein and Herman sent a letter on this issue to Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupoliansky. Arutz-7 asked the Jerusalem municipality for its reaction yesterday, but has still not received it.


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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Hello again folks...

    Well we cannot say that we haven't been warned...

    We Have Been Warned...
    By U.S. Representative Ron Paul (R-TX)

    Before the US House of Representatives, October 26, 2005

    We have been warned. Prepare for a broader war in the Middle East, as plans are being laid for the next U.S.-led regime change – in Syria. A UN report on the death of Lebanese Prime Minister Rafig Hariri elicited this comment from a senior U.S. policy maker: “Out of tragedy comes an extraordinary strategic opportunity.” This statement reflects the continued neo-conservative, Machiavellian influence on our foreign policy. The “opportunity” refers to the long-held neo-conservative plan for regime change in Syria, similar to what was carried out in Iraq.

    This plan for remaking the Middle East has been around for a long time. Just as 9/11 served the interests of those who longed for changes in Iraq, the sensationalism surrounding Hariri’s death is being used to advance plans to remove Assad.

    Congress already has assisted these plans by authorizing the sanctions placed on Syria last year. Harmful sanctions, as applied to Iraq in the 1990s, inevitably represent a major step toward war since they bring havoc to so many innocent people. Syria already has been charged with developing weapons of mass destruction based on no more evidence than was available when Iraq was similarly charged.

    Syria has been condemned for not securing its borders, by the same U.S. leaders who cannot secure our own borders. Syria was castigated for placing its troops in Lebanon, a neighboring country, although such action was invited by an elected government and encouraged by the United States. The Syrian occupation of Lebanon elicited no suicide terrorist attacks, as was suffered by Western occupiers.

    Condemning Syria for having troops in Lebanon seems strange, considering most of the world sees our 150,000 troops in Iraq as an unwarranted foreign occupation. Syrian troops were far more welcome in Lebanon.

    Secretary Rice likewise sees the problems in Syria – that we helped to create – as an opportunity to advance our Middle Eastern agenda. In recent testimony she stated that it was always the administration’s intent to redesign the greater Middle East, and Iraq was only one part of that plan. And once again we have been told that all options are still on the table for dealing with Syria – including war.

    The statement that should scare all Americans (and the world) is the assurance by Secretary Rice that the President needs no additional authority from Congress to attack Syria. She argues that authority already has been granted by the resolutions on 9/11 and Iraq. This is not true, but if Congress remains passive to the powers assumed by the executive branch it won’t matter. As the war spreads, the only role for Congress will be to provide funding lest they be criticized for not supporting the troops. In the meantime, the Constitution and our liberties here at home will be further eroded as more Americans die.

    This escalation of conflict with Syria comes as a result of the UN report concerning the Hariri death. When we need an excuse for our actions, it’s always nice to rely on the organization that our administration routinely condemns, one that brought us the multi-billion dollar oil-for-food scandal and sexual crimes by UN representatives.

    It’s easy to ignore the fact that the report did not implicate Assad, who is targeted for the next regime change. The UN once limited itself to disputes between nations; yet now it’s assumed the UN, like the United States, has a legal and moral right to inject itself into the internal policies of sovereign nations. Yet what is the source of this presumed wisdom? Where is the moral imperative that allows us to become the judge and jury of a domestic murder in a country 6,000 miles from our shores?

    Moral, constitutional, and legal arguments for a less aggressive foreign policy receive little attention in Washington. But the law of unintended consequences serves as a thorough teacher for the slow learners and the morally impaired.

    Is Iraq not yet enough of a headache for the braggarts of the shock and awe policy?
    Are 2,000 lives lost not enough to get their attention?
    How many hundreds of billions of dollars must be drained from our economy before it’s noticed?
    Is it still plausible that deficits don’t matter?
    Is the apparent victory for Iran in the Shiite theocracy we’ve created in Iraq not yet seen as a disturbing consequence of the ill-fated Iraq regime change effort?
    When we have our way with the next election in Lebanon and Hezbollah wins, what do we do?
    If our effort to destabilize Syria is no more successful than our efforts in Iraq, then what?
    If destabilizing Syria leads to the same in Iran, what are our options?
    If we can’t leave now, we’ll surely not leave then – we’ll be told we must stay to honor the fallen to prove the cause was just.

    We should remember Ronald Reagan’s admonition regarding this area of the world. Ronald Reagan reflected on Lebanon in his memoirs, describing the Middle East as a jungle and Middle East politics as irrational. It forced him to rethink his policy in the region. It’s time we do some rethinking as well.

    October 28, 2005

    Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
    Last edited by Don Brooks; 11-02-2005, 07:25 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Jack Kinsella's latest article at
    Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad dismissed international criticism of his call for Israel's annihilation, saying, "They [Israelis] are cheeky humans and they think that the entire world should obey them. They destroy Palestinian families and expect nobody to object to them," Ahmadinejad said, asserting his comments "are the exact words of the Iranian people".

    It was the first time since early in the days of the Islamic Revolution that such a high-ranking Iranian official has openly called for the destruction of Israel.

    Ahmadinejad made his comments during Iran's annual hatefest called 'Jerusalem Day.' Iran's 'Jerusalem Day' is a carnival-like event during which one can express his hatred for the Jews, burn a few flags and meet with jihadist recruiters looking for suicide bombing candidates.

    Protestors in Tehran and other Iranian cities burned Israeli flags and held banners displaying anti-Israeli slogans including "Death to Israel, Death to America".

    Ahmadinejad also said "anyone who signs a treaty which recognizes the entity of Israel means he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world", and warned Muslim leaders who recognize Israel that they "face the wrath of their own people".

    Noted David Horovitz in the Jerusalem Post, " The man was standing at a podium bearing a large poster blaring the title of the gathering, in English: 'The world without Zionism'. He was stating, calmly and confidently, that such a world was indeed entirely within reach... This week, in the boldest language imaginable, Ahmadinejad made plain that, where Israel is concerned, a nuclear Iran under his watch would be anything but benign."

    Yediot Aharonot said in an editorial; "What is worrying, other than the minor issue that one day we might all turn into dust because of a nervous Iranian missile, is that 60 years after the Holocaust a leader of a state again openly threatens to destroy the Jews."

    Haaretz also heard echoes of the Holocaust in Ahmadinejad's speech, writing; "The open call to destroy the state of Israel highlights the comparison with another leader who was elected by his people in 1933 [Adolf Hitler], whose agenda included an open call to destroy the Jewish people."

    Israel immediately called for an emergency session of the UN security council.

    "We have decided to open a broad diplomatic offensive," said Israeli foreign minister, Silvan Shalom.

    Israeli PM Ariel Sharon is also demanding that Iran to be expelled from the UN. "A country that calls for the destruction of another people cannot be a member of the UN," he said.

    Kofi Annan, in what, for him, was an unusually harsh public condemnation, expressed his "dismay" yesterday at Mr Ahmadinejad's remarks and warned Tehran that all UN members had agreed to "refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity ... of any state".

    One wonders. Even Israel?

    The Russian Interfax News Agency reported today that, while the Russians condemned Ahmadinejad's comments as having 'provided added grounds for sending the dispute over Iran's nuclear program to the UN Security Council,' it plans no change in Moscow's nuclear policy vis a vis the Islamic republic.

    "Our position regarding Iran has not changed," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told Interfax during a visit to Jordan.

    So, in a nutshell, we have the government of Iran promising to wipe Israel from the face of the earth and the government of Russia pledging to continue its efforts to provide Tehran with the nuclear means to do so.

    Although it is a mortal sin under the UN Charter for one nation to advocate the destruction of another, particularly for ethnic reasons, the most forceful adjective that Kofi Annan could come up with to describe the UN's official position was 'dismay'.

    The stage is not only set, but the current situation reads like a dress rehearsal for the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophesied 'Gog-Magog' invasion of Ezekiel 38-39.

    To summarize the prophecy, the prophet Ezekiel, writing during the Babylonian Captivity (606-536 BC) foretold the formation of an alliance in the 'latter years' that would launch a sneak attack/invasion of Israel.

    Ezekiel identified the leader of this alliance as "Gog and Magog" whom many scholars more credentialed than I have identified as comprising modern Russia and some of the various 'Stans'.

    Gog's chief lieutenant is identified as 'Persia', the traditional historical name for modern Iran. Persia is joined by Ethiopia and Libya, (modern North Africa) together with much of the Middle Eastern Muslim world.

    "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them." (Ezekiel 38:8)

    The identity of the invasion target could not be more clear. 'Brought back from the sword, gathered out of many people against the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste' -- this can only refer to modern Israel. No previous historical incarnation of Israel meets Ezekiel's specifications.

    Although Russia is the titular head of the invasion force, Persia is the catalyst. Ezekiel says Russia's participation is reluctant at best; Ezekiel says God will "put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth," (38:4) when " at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought." (Ezekiel 38:10)

    And what is the United Nations doing during all this time?

    Incredibly, Ezekiel not only identifies them as being dominated by the Western nations; "the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof" but he says their response amounts to little more than a weak diplomatic protest.

    "Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?" (38:13)

    Russia and Persia are currently joined at the hip by their joint nuclear project, the schizophrenic nature of which puts Moscow at odds with the rest of the world.

    There is little doubt that a nuclear Iran would make good on Ahmadinejad's threat with only minimal provocation. Moscow simultaneously condemns Iran for making it while supply it with the means to make the threat good.

    And, while the Western world might express 'dismay' at a Moscow-led sneak invasion, it is unlikely that it will risk nuclear war with the Russians over Israel.

    Washington might, but the Europeans certainly wouldn't, leaving only Israel's never-confirmed nuclear arsenal between Jerusalem and the barrier mountains separating it from the West Bank.

    Ezekiel, writing from his historical vantage point two thousand years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue, gave this description of the battlefield:

    "And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone." (38:22)

    Now, let's leave Ezekiel aside for a moment and pretend we are prophets writing from our vantage point in history, trying to predict three years hence.

    Israeli intelligence determines Iran is on the verge of developing nuclear weapons. Ahmadinejad's call for wiping Israel from the map is now a practical possibility.

    Since the US is currently involved in operations with Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, it is up to Israel to take out Iran's nuclear facilities or live under the threat of instant annihilation at the whims of guys like Ahmadinejad.

    With no other choice, Israel launches its strike, taking out much of Iran's nuclear infrastructure, together with the thousands of Russian contractors, scientists, security personnel and administrators stationed there.

    Iran, furious at being deprived of its nuclear ambitions, turns to the wounded Russians and together, they launch a surprise retaliatory invasion of the Jewish state.

    Neither Europe nor the UN are prepared to stand against nuclear Moscow, particularly in light of Russian casualties inflicted by Israel in an attack that meets the definition of an act of war under international law.

    Such an attack would provide all the excuse necessary for the rest of the Arab world to declare war on Israel and join in on the invasion.

    That scenario puts the invading army on the mountains of Israel. It leaves Israel with the choice between its own annihilation and use of nuclear weapons to destroy the invaders.

    Sound about right?

    The above scenario is not only possible, it is probable, given that Iran will not give up its nuclear ambitions and Israel can not allow Iran to achieve them.

    And it is an exact match to Ezekiel's prophecy, right down to the various members of the various alliances and their various positions relative to Israel as they exist in this fifth year of the 21st century.

    The only differences are that my scenario is an educated guess based on conditions as they exist today, and I could be wrong about the exact order and detail.

    Ezekiel wrote from Babylon, one hundred and fifty years after the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by Sargon the Assyrian and two thousand five hundred years before a sovereign nation called 'Israel' would again be numbered among the nations of the world.

    "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure." (Isaiah 46-8:10)

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    A few posts ago we raised the issue of "unwalled" villages. I mentioned the possible connection to the Security Wall that is being built. It is snaking its way across Israel landscape and looks more and more like an international boundary. At some point in the near future the door will swing shut on everything beyond the wall. Yet the consensus of translators when they have encountered this section of Ezekiel is to paint a picture of safety and even tranquility. The key word in the section is "betach". It is translated "in safety" or "safely" in most translations of Ezekiel 38:11. Presumably to the early translators if one had no wall, gate,bar than the conditions must reflect at least a feeling of safety and security.

    Betach (Stong 983) means properly a "place of refuge". It comes from 982 which we will consider in a moment. ABSTRACTLY Betach can mean "safety" in both fact (security) and feeling (trust). Thus translators use words like confidence, secure, surely, without care, careless.
    982 properly means to "hie for refuge". What a delightful little word that is..hie. It means to hasten, or go quickly. So we have hasten for refuge.

    I would like to quote what ZionGene posted last fall. He had looked at the original Hebrew 0f 38:11 and strung the direct tranlated English phrases together as follows:

    And you will say / I will go up / upon (or against) the land / rural regions I will enter / the settled areas (or settlements) / dwellings for protection / all of them for settlings / nowhere protection / no way of escape / no exit / nowhere for them.

    I have checked through each of these Hebrew words and certainly respect what ZG has already done. The only additional comment I would make is that "rural regions" is literally area "outside the Wall". Notice that the potential meaning of this passage becomes increasingly clear in light of Jewish settlements being left to defend themselves when Israel disengages from the West Bank.

    As one reads Ezekiel 38 and considers what Gog is actually saying the whole scene begins to make more sense. Gog and his army will arrive in the Mountains of Israel (that is the West Bank). I get the impression that he is initially "dragged in there" for some reason but then realizes there is another wonderful opportunity (to take spoil, or at least oil). That "reason" in my mind has to do with the disengagement of Israel from the West Bank. Thousands of Jews will refuse to leave the exact turf of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. It would be difficult to effect a disengagement even if there was a moderate, cooperative Palestinian government in place. But there is not!! If Israel decides to evacuate the West Bank unilaterally, absolute chaos will result. It is impossible to reconcile a terrorist organization like Hamas (dedicated as they are to the complete destruction of Israel) to be any sort of partner in peace.

    Folks on this website have debated whether Israel must be enjoying a time of "peace" before Gog arrives. There are also major differences over who Gog and his friends actually are. IT IS WORTH US CAREFULLY STUDYING THESE ISSUES...the security of our own country hangs in the balance. Joel Rosenberg paints a scenario involving the Russians and Muslim associates getting destroyed. My own alternative viewpoint is that the "invaders" will be cheered by a good portion of the Israeli public and handed lemonade at the airport upon their arrival. Either way GOG AND HIS ARMY WILL NEVER LEAVE THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL ALIVE.

    We live at a time when freedom to practice one's religion has turned into celebration of all religions (and their gods) at the highest institutional levels (WH and State Dept) Read the speeches made by the President and Secretary of State during Ramadan. How is that different from Solomon erecting altars for the false pagan gods. Allah and Yahweh are NOT THE SAME!!!

    I believe the earthquake that hits Israel will be felt around the world. You can anticipate seismic activity following in the ring of fire around the Pacific. Sorry that means you folks out of the west coast better duck. In addition, when this earthquake hits "cliffs will fall" and even the "fish of the sea" will feel it. If I didn't know better I would think Ezekiel was describing the La Palme island in the Azores sliding into the Atlantic with an ocean surge wiping out the entire east coast of the USA along with Caribbean islands. At least in that case there is an 8 hour advance warning before the surge hits. That particular litle disaster made the list of top 5 catastrophies coming to us. (the authors of that piece did not even bother to include the west coast earthquakes since that is a no brainer!)

    We are on a sleepwalk to disaster ahead. The only thing that can change the course of events might be widespread repentance and supplication. Otherwise judgment will fall on the Land of Gog, Magog and his father Geronimo. (let the reader understand)

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Snoopy- you may be right (but I don't think so). The army that comes on the horses also carry shields and swords as well according to the translations you are reading. They come for cattle as part of the loot. Hardly worth the my travels through Israel I haven't seen many cows.

    My point above is that the Hebrew language does not change like Shakespeare's English. The explanation may end up being different than what even Ezekiel might have imagined. I restate that in chapter 38 and 39 there is no indication that Ezekiel was actually "seeing" anything, he was recording what God told him to write down. I am fully convinced that His word will be exactly fulfilled, however God chooses to accomplish it.

    Lewis: I happen to agree that Gog's destruction represents the second seal of Revelation. The AntiChrist will likely take advantage of the incredible chaos that is associated with this mess.
    Last edited by HSB; 10-26-2005, 05:09 PM.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Originally posted by lewishb

    remember the one worlders have repeatedly used/ started/ financed war as part of their overall plan...... neithor ww1 or ww2 were accidents....... they were carefully planned by the elite and the sheeple went along for the ride.


    i hate to agree with this, but i have come around to this notion lately. Im afraid to say that ww3 was started in the like manner on 9/11. i dunno...

    very strange, very unusual times we live in!

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    isnt it interesting how the closer to end time events we get the clearer the picture gets shades of Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    the rest of the world has seen how we have legitimized invadeing /liberateing countries we disagree with
    its only a matter of time before someone else does it.......

    now how about this; got your seat belt on ???
    the Gog invasion as the seccond seal of revelation is allowed if not incouraged by the AC as part of his "peace plan"....... after all, there will be genuine world peace only after all the Jews have been "resettled" as in the nazi useage of the term........

    remember the one worlders have repeatedly used/ started/ financed war as part of their overall plan...... neithor ww1 or ww2 were accidents....... they were carefully planned by the elite and the sheeple went along for the ride.

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    HSB you posted The Hebrew word soos is normally translated horse in English. Now we know a horse as a 4 legged animal with a mane tail etc that people can ride. But some places in the Bible this same word is translated as crane (bird) How on earth can a horse be a bird??? Simple- the actual root word meant simply meant "quick flight".

    I guess what I am getting at is, Ezekiel would have been writing this in his own time, and not through what we can interpret it to mean today, but what it meant in his day. Language evolves through time, and meanings for words evolve with it. Look at Shakespeare. Its English but you need a glossary of terms and meanings for words you think you already know the meanings for. I just think the translation is probably the simplest explanation, and extending the "soos-quick flight" to men in planes in my opinion is forcing a translation. I think there would have been more descriptive or comparative language, in explaining something that he would never have seen before. I think it is strange that he would have used language that would imply something else in his time period.


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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Snoopy- what is the "literal translation"? If the word means literally "swift flight" does that imply horse, bird, jumbo jet etc...which one??

    I'm not sure what Ezekiel actually SAW? I can tell you that when this prophecy is fulfilled it will exactly meet the text of what Ezekiel wrote, nothing less!

    I notice that in Ezekiel 37 the prophet "saw`a great many bones etc". I believe he actually saw what he described. Now look over to chapters 38 and 39. No reference to seeing anything. He is recounting what God told him. "The Word of the Lord came to me" and "Prophesy against Gog and say". Later in chapter 40 he is back to describing what he saw (verse 3 etc). Nowhere in 38 or 39 does it say the prophet saw horses, no birds , no jumbo jets" We`must be careful what we assume from such passages. Now what did God Himself mean when he inspired these passages?..did he mean Russian cossacks coming over the Caucasus mountains on horseback after some pulse bomb has knocked out electronics, UN/USA troops deployed from aircraft after sipping lemonade provided by an appreciative welcome crowd of Jewish leftists at Ben Gurion airport etc, we cannot tell for certain until it actually happens. One thing I can assure you Snoopy...that you will feel the earthquake that takes out Gog's army (if this occurs in our lifetime) and you will know that the God of Israel lives and reigns on high!!

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    HSB your post has sparked some interest in me doing my own homework on the passages in this thread. Of course it has sparked some more questions as well.
    Being a author of passages in the bible, and being shown things or instructed to write of things in the future, that could prove difficult to explain, why would the author choose descriptions that would not give more clues. Here is why I ask the question. If I were to describe a man riding a horse carrying a sword....that's exactly how I would say it. I see a man on a horse carrying a sword. Now if I was asked to describe something I had never seen before wouldn't I be using comparative statements? So if I have never seen a train before I would compare it to things I have seen. Like a great long chariot with no horses to pull it. The confusion is that we sometimes try to force happenings of today into a prophecy to make them fit. I do believe that sometimes the most simple answer is the right one. So if it translates as horseback, I am confident that we today have the technology to wage wars in tanks and planes, but with one EMP pulse we are back to horseback. Seems to me like we should also consider the literal translation as a very viable and believable outcome to this prophecy.


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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Snoopy you have raised a really interesting question. There are so many editions of the Scriptures out there (for the moment let's just consider the legitimate ones, not the attempts to rip passages out or distort clear meanings) When I was much younger than I am today, I can recall sitting in Bible studies and being amazed at what some people were reading. My translation had totally different words for some verses. How could that possibly be, I wondered. Then I learned that there a number of things going on. One of these is the difficulty finding English words for some concept originally written in a different language. A simple example might be the following: there are over a dozen words in Inuit for snow, but only one in English. How does the translator accurately convey the sublety of the intended meaning. An example in our Christian walk might be the word love. You are aware that in New Testamentr Greek there are at least 3 different words translated "love" in English.
    A second issue deals with the fact that Hebrew is an INCREDIBLE language based on a root word structure. An example of what this means is as follows. The Hebrew word soos is normally translated horse in English. Now we know a horse as a 4 legged animal with a mane tail etc that people can ride. But some places in the Bible this same word is tranlated as crane (bird) How on earth can a horse be a bird??? Simple- the actual root word meant simply meant "quick flight". When a soldier arrives in "quick flight" in the past that indicated he was riding on a horse. It still can mean that today. But it could also mean that he arrives on a jumbo jet or troop helicopter. Hebrew does not evlove but it is able to transend time in a way English certainly cannot. Even to refer to a locomotive in English as an "iron horse" is poetic, not descriptive. We all know a horse animal cannot be made of iron.
    So what did the original author mean, you ask. Unfortunately the prophet is not around to help us out. But I can assure you that when these prophecies get fulfilled they will do so EXACTLY as the words are recorded in Scripture. Those alive at the time will know this is so!!!
    It is critically important that folks be cautious about the meaning of certain passages of Scripture. Simply because one read it in the NIV or King James in English does not guarantee an exact fulfillment. What is helpful is to read the original Hebrew and understand why the translators did what they did, and the limitations of their work. The ability of Hebrew to transend time makes it such a powerful language but also means we have some homework to do. I for one find these exercises very exciting.
    So often there are multiple levels to understanding a passage. One level is simply the physical realm, another the spiritual realm. Years ago I did a little study on the pagan tribes that were judged and removed from Canaan to make room for the Israelites. What a fascinating little study. For example one tribe's name meant "terror" another "possessions". In our Christian walk we face these challenges all the time. These things are always vying for our attention, loyalty or fear!
    Anyway, hope this quick answer is helpful- keep on studying and asking God to show you what he wants in your will be amazed at how the Scriptures open up in a brand new way. Shalom (Hebrew for peace!!)

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    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    HSB if the general consensus between translators is the same thing, wouldn't God want everyone to agree on the meaning and understanding? How else will we be able to see the scripture come to life? With there being no confusing the act of God in the final days, a disagreement on the translation would prove to be major doubt in my mind.

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