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Hi all,
Due to well over two years of a clear lack of interest in this board, I will be closing it when the hosting is up next month (24 Aug). I see no reason to continue this with the lack of readership and participation.

It's been a wonderful 27+ years, with tons of ups and downs, but with all the excellent resources available to us online via Telegram, YouTube and other platforms - we've outgrown our purpose. I do not believe any huge modification/improvements to the site would help, plus that has always been way beyond my knowledge/skill set.

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How to Take a Stand

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  • How to Take a Stand

    Ok ... I think (hope) that we all here, can see that the Untied States is going through a major shift. It is already a country that most of us cannot recognize as the country we grew up in. I won't make an endless list of why this is so because much of this board is already about that. What we see in the past couple years and especially in the past couple months, is so far beyond what I thought was a worse case scenerio for this point in time. I am tempted to drop the "imho" from the front of this next statement, but for now I won't ... imho, something in the spiritual realm has gotten a literal death grip on the throat of the Untied States.

    Now, I often hear in person and on various discussion boards, that this is all mostly the church's fault. The thinking is that if we prayed more, took a stronger stand, etc., that all this hideous activity/inactivity could have been prevented. I disagree with that on many points but the single biggest reason is that since we know how the world will be at the end ... or at least, have a clue ... that in order for all that to be fulfilled ... in other words, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, the church would have to be ineffective, lazy, disobedient ....

    The fact is, the church, the body of Christ, comprised of those that are born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are led by the Spirit (Rom.8:14 is VERY important in regards to this.), have started ministries and/or support ministries that are on the forefront of resisting evil; i.e. Focus on the Family, Jay Sekulow ACLJ, and countless others ... the church has resisted abortion, pornography, countless forms of abuse; it has sent out countless missionaries throughout the Untied States and just about every other country in the world. The church has launched campaigns to get elected, Christian members of school boards, city governments, state and federal governments, MASSIVE amounts of prayer have gone up on the candidate's behalf ... all the way up to attempts at the Whitehouse. I know something about the Christian lobbyists in Washington that are opposing hate crime legislation and other legislation that will directly impact broadcast ministry as well as what is actually said inside of a church building. There is a lot of cost involved in this lobbying. That is covered by ... you guessed it; the church.

    Now, I am among the first to admit that in many ways, the church can be more effective. But I am hoping to have set aside at least a little bit, the notion that the evil that is washing over this nation; indeed, the whole earth, is not the fault of the church. It was, is and always will be, the result of sin; not something the church did or did not do.

    I often hear the cry from a more general group called conservatives (which includes non-Christians as well ...) that "we need to TAKE A STAND! Ok .. so I ask: What does "taking a stand" look like? Call/write/email Senators? Like when a full 93% of Americans told them to NOT vote for the first "stimulus package"? Maybe vote? Like when Hawaii and Colorado voted a overwhelming NO to gay rights but then a federal judge said nope; unconstitutional? A large majority of Americans are opposed to abortion, but it remains ... even the no-words-to-describe partial birth abortion. That one is supposedly stopped now but that bill that President Bush signed is a lie. It DID NOT stop partial birth abortion as Dr. Dobson and others touted. All it did was change how it is done which is even harder on the poor baby. (See this) The greatest effort I have ever seen (I'm 57 and have been very politically 'aware' since about 10 or 11 years old) to get people to vote a certain way went into the last presidential campaign. Yet, we got what we have.

    Matthew 7:
    13
    *Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 *Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Imvho, the above passage has a lot to do with all this.

    So, if government, especially elected representatives, no longer represent their constituents, how can we have a say in national policy? There are only two alternatives when that nonrepresentation is complete. 1.) Revolution. Armed revolution. Some folks did that a long time ago and we now count them affectionately as the "founding fathers". And 2.) Only Christians can do this ... hmmm ... having sat here thinking how to word this, I decided to make "2.)" be another post. I'll close this post though with saying that I won't partake in the armed revolution concept.

    Issachar
    Last edited by Issachar; 10-11-2012, 11:45 AM. Reason: spelling; added 'not' where it was missing
    The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

    Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

    Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

  • #2
    Re: How to Take a Stand

    I truly do hope you continue this, Issachar...and I'm going to pin this post as it has to be one of the most important out here (having to do with the spiritual battle we're now seeing all around us).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How to Take a Stand

      Ok ... 2.) Only Christians can do this. When we are born into this world, we are of the first man, Adam. Adam is of the earth ... earthy. So are we. Then there is a second man, the Lord from heaven. When we are born a second (and final - for passers-by as is most of this for now) time, we are then of the second man and become heavenly instead of earthy.

      1 Corinthians 15:
      45
      And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
      46 *Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
      47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
      48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
      49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

      Once this happens, we are separated from the "world". We are still in it, but no longer of it.

      John 17:
      14
      I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
      15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
      16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

      I've mentioned this before, but it fits here so I will add it here ...
      We all know what a family tree is. Quite literally, ultimately, at the head of the family tree of the human race is Adam. ALL humans have descended from him and the woman that God made from his rib, Eve. Adam and Eve sinned against God prior to having any offspring. (side note: since their bodies were absolutely perfect in every way, NOTHING could prevent them from having children. That is why I believe that the fall occurred VERY shortly after the creation. ) God told every creature he made to reproduce after it's own kind. A squirrel had a squirrel had a squirrel and a cow had a cow had a cow and a bird had a bird had a bird ... everything, after it's own kind ... on down to today ... with variations that God built into the gene pool of each kind. Each offspring of each creature had the nature of each of the original creatures (barring what man's sin did to the creation since it affected all of creation in one way or another). A squirrel does not have to decide to find and store nuts in various locations for the upcoming Winter. It just does. What's more ... while it is doing it, it is incapable of even wondering why it is doing it. It just does because that is it's nature that God gave the original pair. (There are lot's of "what if's" and "what about's" in this concept ... but please just bear with the gist of what I am saying. This isn't meant to be a discourse on the Creation) Just as all else inherited the nature of it's parents, so too did humans. The problem is that the inherited nature is a sin nature. It "naturally" is rebellious; especially towards God.

      Well ... back to the family tree analogy ... some 6-7 thousand years later, we that are reading this, are/were some small branch on this one, mammoth family tree. By God's grace, through faith, we are in Christ.

      Ephesians 2:
      8
      For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
      9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

      Being in Christ and He in us by the Holy Spirit, we are become members of His body of which Christ is the head. As members of His body, even though from our perspective he died and was raised some 2000 years ago, we somehow (God knows) too died with Him and were raised in Him as new creations in Christ; the Father of that new creation that we are, is God. How cool is that?! (we don't have a clue yet. ) What I believe to be true is that when we "die" in Christ, we are cut off from the family tree of the first man, Adam. and when we are raised to life in Christ, we are grafted into a new family tree, at the head of which is God, which is why He can now call us His children.

      Romans 8:
      16
      The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
      (I wanted to quote more here because there is no end to the blessedness of the whole chapter, but space and time .... you all have bibles though.)

      This verse I post with a bit of hesitation because some may argue against it fitting here ... but I will anyway and we can discuss if necessary.
      Romans 9:
      8
      That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

      Galatians 3: (another chapter filled with amazing info ...)
      26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

      So, we were born once to get here as sinful humans descended from Adam and Eve and we were born a second time and left that behind and are now new creatures in Christ.

      2 Corinthians 5:
      17
      Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

      So we have this earth we live on populated by two sorts of humans. Those born once and those born twice. Those born once are "of the world" and those born twice are "in the world but not of the world". Though in it, we are separate from it.

      2 Corinthians 6:
      14
      Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
      15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
      16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
      17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
      18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

      I believe that Jesus was perfectly separate from the world. That is why He was perfectly effective in the world. Now I am getting to the part about what I think it means "to take a stand".

      Because He was/is separate from the world, He was able to go into all the world and preach the gospel of the Kingdom and not be tainted in anyway by being there. All of the history of people, whether believers or not, have heard of Jesus. No one or anything has, does or will impact the world like Jesus has. Now, as born again people, as the body of Christ, we too, by yielding to Christ's headship, can impact the world. It won't be through natural methods. It won't be through a revolution of words, an armed revolution, voting, or anything else. It will be by the leading of the Spirit. I like the saying; "if God is your co-pilot, switch seats."

      My fingers need a rest for now but first I'd like to say that if anyone has issue with the voting comment, all I have to say on that is that we need to follow the leading of the Spirit as best we are able to discern at the point we are at in our walk and obey that. If one believes the Spirit is leading them to vote, then to not vote is disobedience. And conversely ......

      Issachar
      Last edited by Issachar; 05-06-2012, 07:46 AM. Reason: added a comma and an 'm' and an 'of'
      The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

      Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

      I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

      Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How to Take a Stand

        Somewhere in all that typing I meant to say this too ...

        Sometimes, if a believer doesn't believe in being politically active in some way to bring about change, they are told that "it is better to do something than nothing." That is a true statement, imho, but not being politically active does not necessarily translate into "doing nothing". Again, I point to Jesus who was seemingly totally politically inactive but was totally effective. Then there are believers who are politically active but rarely, if ever, share the gospel with someone. It can go both ways but again, not necessarily.

        Issachar
        Last edited by Issachar; 11-18-2011, 06:43 AM. Reason: removed a double negative ..
        The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

        Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

        I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

        Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How to Take a Stand

          Great post, Issachar, as usual. I truly believe that in all of this, for me, it is easy to get caught up in the whole political mess, which, for me, leads almost to despair these days. It can also lead me into not being prayerful about this nation--but I do it anyway. Walk by faith and not by sight. I believe that God is sovreign and that He has a plan for America. It may not be my personal desire or plan for America. I have to remember to not create a "false idol" out of this nation just because I love it. I continue to feel led to pray for this nation, especially for repentance and revival.

          As far as the larger Body of Christ--imho, "IF (all caps are mine) my people, who are called by my Name, will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways, and pray...I will hear from heaven and heal their land." First, we have to examine what humble means-and this is humble used as a verb which is the implication of the Biblical text: –verb (used with object) to lower in importance, dignity or abase; to destroy the independence of, power of or will; to make meek.

          I will leave it up to each person who reads this to decide whether or not you believe that you and most of the church in this country meets just the requirement of "humble" or are even willing to become humble. Perhaps, God is allowing this so that His Body will become humble, like Jesus. Trust me when I say that I am quite aware that I need to remove the beam from my own eye before I attempt to remove the splinter from another's eye.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How to Take a Stand

            Originally posted by GH
            I continue to feel led to pray for this nation, especially for repentance and revival.
            AMEN! And THAT dear sister is taking a stand.

            Originally posted by GH
            ... "IF (all caps are mine) my people, who are called by my Name, will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways, and pray...I will hear from heaven and heal their land."
            2 Chronicles 7:
            14
            *If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

            That of course, is God replying to Solomon's prayer concerning Israel. I believe it applies also to the church today. But it may be a bit of a different view than some have. Let me explain starting with this verse:

            1 Peter 2:
            9
            *But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
            10 *Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

            Note "an holy nation" in v.9. I think the church, the body of Christ, is that "land" that God will heal. It is a land ... or nation ... that is spread over the face of the earth and has it's own government; Jesus. What healing does this "nation" need? Lots. We need humbling, we need to pray more (no matter how much we already do), we need to ever more seek His face and we all have wicked thoughts at least sometimes of which we must repent. It is a process of sanctification, of dying to self, of being made holy which is to be set apart unto God.

            Well ... something like that anyway.

            Originally posted by GH
            Perhaps, God is allowing this so that His Body will become humble, like Jesus.
            I personally would be fine with dropping "perhaps".

            Issachar
            The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

            Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

            I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

            Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How to Take a Stand

              Actually, Issachar, I think you are on to something big here! It makes perfect sense that God might see His Church as a "nation", just as He did Israel. Which puts a whole other spin on the scripture. As far as "perhaps" I agree--there are times when I equivocate that I should not. Very insightful and thought provoking thread. Thank you brother!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How to Take a Stand

                Ya ... one of the many reasons that the nation idea makes sense to me is something I mentioned earlier in the thread and that is the idea of what prophecy says about the last days. It conflicts with all being well if Christians do whatever it is they "should" to make things good "in the world". We know that the Word, for example, says that things will be as they were in the days of Noah ... many cite the giving in marriage and marrying, eating, drinking, etc. as a reason to think that things will somehow be relatively peaceful and "normal" just prior to our Lord's return.

                Matthew 24:
                37
                *But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                38 *For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, ...

                But what else do we know about those days? Besides the nephilim thing that I don't want to bring up in this thread, we see this:

                Genesis 6:
                5
                *And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
                11 *¶The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
                12 *And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

                So if all Christians do "what they should do (fill in the blank)" and that was to result in God healing the land they live in ... Untied States, China, Eritrea, etc. then how can that work? Either God would have to go against His Word (which we KNOW He will not do) and let these weird things happen anyway OR it would have to be the churches fault for bad things to come about. I have no clue if I'm being clear or not ... I think I tend towards using too many words to express myself and then I end up confusing people.

                The testimonies of the saints, our brothers and sisters in Christ, from or still in countries with real persecution, are amazing. They are monuments imho, to the greatness of God's grace. Their strength; their taking a stand in Christ even unto death is one of the major witnesses that bring others over there to a saving faith in Christ. Seeing someone go through that instead of denying Christ has to cause them to know that something about their faith is real.

                Issachar
                The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How to Take a Stand

                  You are not using too many words here, but well chosen ones. It actually makes a tremendous amount of sense. Particularly when we are discussing our fellow Christians living in tremendous persecution who are truly "saints" on this earth. It also explains why, to me, it "seems as if" so many prayers go unanswered--because they are misdirected based on a possible misunderstanding of God's meaning in the Word. I think you are onto something here and will be very interested in seeing what others on Wedg might have to say about all of this. Thank you for a thought provoking post.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How to Take a Stand

                    What I'm thinking is perhaps I should make this thread a "mandatory" thread that folks have to hit before they can go to the rest of the board! (I don't know if that's possible with this version of vBulletin but - seriously, this is RICH stuff - thanks again, Issachar and now GH)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How to Take a Stand

                      I'm reading and getting soooooooooo blessed!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How to Take a Stand

                        Issachar,

                        Thank you for such a thought provoking thread.

                        Quoting Issachar:

                        Ok ... I think (hope) that we all here, can see that the Untied States is going through a major shift. It is already a country that most of us cannot recognize as the country we grew up in. I won't make an endless list of why this is so because much of this board is already about that. What we see in the past couple years and especially in the past couple months, is so far beyond what I thought was a worse case scenerio for this point in time. I am tempted to drop the "imho" from the front of this next statement, but for now I won't ... imho, something in the spiritual realm has gotten a literal death grip on the throat of the Untied States.

                        The fact is, the church, the body of Christ, comprised of those that are born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are led by the Spirit (Rom.8:14 is VERY important in regards to this.), have started ministries and/or support ministries that are on the forefront of resisting evil; i.e. Focus on the Family, Jay Sekulow ACLJ, and countless others ... the church has resisted abortion, pornography, countless forms of abuse; it has sent out countless missionaries throughout the Untied States and just about every other country in the world.

                        So if all Christians do "what they should do (fill in the blank)" and that was to result in God healing the land they live in ... Untied States,


                        One thing I've been wondering is if you have been intentionally misspelling "United". I, for one, have been feeling like our country is being deliberately unraveled. head:

                        The only thing that keeps me centered is knowing that God is on His throne and that I'm only passing through this corrupt and lost land. My heart breaks for all the poor deceived souls who won't listen to sound, biblical teachings and turn to their only hope in Jesus.

                        Individually, I think we need to make sure our fellowship with the Lord is where it should be and pray that we approach each day with the attitude that we are the only "Bible" that some with whom we come into contact will ever know; and each day may be the last opportunity we have to reach them for Christ. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I need to hear it myself and make a daily commitment to stay focused on the real prize.

                        God bless you all.

                        Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.
                        ping:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How to Take a Stand

                          Issachar,

                          You have brought up many important issues. When I was in high school, my youth pastor had a particular saying he used to describe, in his words, "lazy Christians": "mamby-pamby, jellyfish-backboned Christians".

                          "Mamby-pamby" because they could hardly ever decide what to do according to the Bible. "Jellyfish-backboned" because everyone should know that jellyfish do not have backbones. That means the weak Christian is swayed by just about everything that goes by them, and they don't check it out against what God says in the Bible.

                          Unfortunately, many pastors today fall under the above description. They do not want to offend anyone, and in doing that particular thing, they end up offending the Lord. What a shame on them.

                          One of the first and most basic things that pastors can do is give full back up on creation. Evolution is not real in any way, shape or form. Genesis tells the truth.

                          Next, the pastors need to preach the truth about salvation. It is free; no one has to do ANY thing to receive it; once you ask Jesus into your heart, the Holy Spirit takes up residence and NEVER leaves. People do not have to pray to any other entity to get to heaven. There is no other mediator between us and God - only Jesus {not Mary, the MoMan, or any body else.}

                          We need to pray for our pastors, especially those who are really trying to stay true to the Word of God and not buckle under to the psy-cops. We need to pray for each other that we will remain true to the Lord also.

                          Looking forward to more responses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How to Take a Stand

                            Yes Sonrise, Untied States is an intentional misspelling. It is my subtle way (you're the first to notice; or at least mention it.) of saying that I think the nation is coming unraveled. It's been happening for a long time, but it seems more accelerated in the past couple years and especially in the last few months.

                            Very true Shelby. Christians, probably starting with pastors/teachers, need to take a stand by standing strong for the Word of God and STOP compromising with the "world". When the church is strong in it's stance and united (not untied), then the world will notice. They may hate us (probably the majority) or they may come to Christ. But I think that when we learn to stand even as Christ would were He here on earth with us today in the flesh, then the impact would be way beyond anything we can imagine; both on the church and on the "world".

                            Issachar
                            The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                            Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                            I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                            Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How to Take a Stand

                              Amen. Stand on His Word. Uncompromising. His Unchanging Word. Assured that He is in control. He tells us that we are "blessed" when others hate and revile us for His name's sake. And some might be saved when we stand. In this world, it seems that few people stand for anything anymore. We are called to be the Light of the World.

                              Comment

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