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Revelation 13 - Attempting to Understand

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  • #16
    I'm making my way through that article Gail (post #6). There is a lot of interesting points in there. One:

    “One of his heads” is apparently the Roman Empire (compare 17:10-11). This revival causes amazement throughout the “world”.
    Revelation 17:
    10
    they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

    11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

    v.11 is amazing. "the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven .."

    This why I'm more trying to just get a grasp on what is what and who is what and what is who. I suspect between Daniel and Revelation and a whole lot more, there is the entirety of the history of the world as concerns kingdoms that have been, are and will be. When I saw v.11 in my own studies and then repeated in that article, I was amazed; even in just how it's worded. I agree that it is describing the Old/Revived Roman Empire. It certainly was (something like 600ish years?), and it is no more. But it will be again.

    Something I wonder and have posted about in the past concerning Roman Empire and the little horn, etc. . . .

    See posts 4 & 5 here and follow the link in post 4 and see post 1 there.

    I do wish there were more time.

    Issachar
    The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

    Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

    Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

    Comment


    • #17
      13:11a and 15a ... counterfeiting God's work in Genesis 2:7?

      Genesis 2:
      7
      And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

      Revelation 13:
      11
      And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; . .

      15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, . .

      Just a random thought this morning when studying something else ..

      Issachar

      The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

      Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

      I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

      Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

      Comment


      • #18
        Forty-seven times in the NT "pneuma" is referencing an evil spirit (according to BlueLetterBible.org.

        Strong's also gives this meaning to "spirit"

        1) a movement of air (a gentle blast
        1a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
        1b) breath of nostrils or mouth

        Easton's Dictionary suggests it can be "figuratively".

        I do not believe this image of the beast will be given life as God gives it. I know that's just my thoughts, but I have always held a strong opinion that ONLY God can give true life to that which is lifeless...and scripture sure seems to support that I found this list of scriptures (John 1:4; comes to mind as do a few others).

        The fact that the Spirit of God inspired John to use pneuma is indeed a little confusing.

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        • #19
          I question too that it would be actual life, but to deceive the whole world requires quite a deception. It could be that God allowed something like that, but it definitely wouldn't be life as God makes life. Tough to express my exact thought on that, but then again, we are talking about an extremely unique and dark time in the Revelation.

          Originally posted by Andy
          . . . "pneuma" is referencing an evil spirit (according to BlueLetterBible.org.
          Could be the image is something like an AI entity such as does not yet exist, but may not be too far away, and this second beast causes (however all that realm works) an evil spirit to "possess" the AI entity. I say "entity" because who knows what it may look like. But too, after he, the second beast, gives "life" unto the image of the first beast, it results in "the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." So it definitely has some serious abilities afterward.

          For me, it doesn't matter (for now) exactly what "life" means in the context of v.15 because it can only be something that God can allow, whatever it is. I do lean towards it being some kind of life though simply because that is the word, as you pointed out, that the Spirit of God inspired John to use.

          I don't think it can be only some interconnected electronics in conjunction with the most clever software either, because they already are doing that, at a rapidly and effective increasing rate, without the second beast. So again, whatever it means, I think we can definitely agree it will be quite something such as no one has ever seen . . . in an incredibly evil way. It'll be creepy whatever it is.

          Issachar
          The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

          Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

          I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

          Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

          Comment


          • #20
            At this point I am of the mind that it will be a combination of human flesh and AI. The development of AI has gotten to the point where you have people like Elon Musk and the former head of Google's research and development projects calling for a halt on all work on AI until some global rules can be put into place governing what can legally be done with it. These men are fearful of what can happen with uncontrolled AI, and for very good reason. Tucker Carlson did a 2 hour interview with Elon Musk that ought to send chills down every person's spine. AI, at this point has self awareness. Think about that. And where that can lead.

            Here is the only part of that interview I can find: https://rumble.com/v2j2yg6-tucker-ca...lon-musk..html

            Comment


            • #21
              You verbalized exactly what I was thinking, sister.
              "Transhumanism" is a H U G E project nowadays.
              I can see how that could very well be the answer.
              They think it's their road to immortality - to being "like God".
              Exactly like Satan said to Eve, and just like Babel.

              But God...

              Comment


              • #22
                JD really digs into this subject - highly suggest taking the time to watch this week's.

                Bible Prophecy (jdfarag.org)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Exactly Brother Andy! "You will be like God." Funny how things never change with unregenerate mankind. Thanks for the heads up on J.D. I'll watch it later.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hi everyone

                    I promised I would post so....

                    2 minor points, one silly-ish and a bit scary the other technical.

                    A) silly and scary: possessed AI. Like a gollum, physically made by hands but given false life by a pneuma (spirit). A Frankenstein's monster.

                    And

                    3) a word in any language has 2 meanings basicly, an intrinsic one and a contextual one. In English the word "sea" intrinsically means: the expanse of salt water that covers most of the earth's surface and surrounds its landmasses." - Webster

                    But, contextualy you may find a writer means "the black sea" or "Sea of Galilee" or "the Irish sea" none of which "covers most of the earth's surface and surrounds its landmasses"

                    Point being I would caution taking contextual meanings from usages of words in the Bible and imprinting them on the intrinsic meaning of a word and thus adding a point of understanding where its not intended.

                    ((Sorry about the a) and then 3)....it's my favorite Dr. Who joke... .. . Ok... not really sorry ...))

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      So if I was a writer, and wanted to highlight a phrase's importance, I might say "the Michigan Sea" instead of "Lake Michigan". Now I would not be talking about Lake Michigan's saltiness, because it doesn't have any. Nor would I be talking about its encompassing Michigan because it doesn't.

                      I would be talking about it's great size, which could be very important when speaking to a foolish young man about to attempt to swim across it while smoking a cigarette and carrying an anvil.

                      It's one of the reasons I suspect "the sea" here being connected to "the deep" of the gospels, the both have spirits either being cast into them or rising from them and both are places we cant go

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You make excellent points Brother Boston. In Bible study I have always believed context is as important as the actual words.

                        If AI has the ability to process all human knowledge, as it apparently can do based on the interviews I've heard and read, it has no inherent "conscience or moral code." The machine will find vast stores of knowledge of human history in which mankind has done the most heinous and evil things based on its internal belief that it was for the benefit of some group of humanity. Unlike Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi author, who wrote about robotics almost 100 years ago, there is no imperative at this point to put any type of control or brakes on it. Asimov created "The first Law of Robotics" which disallowed any machine to do harm to a human. Sadly, and very scarily, there seems to be no agreement between the developers of AI, that there needs to be a stop or brake applied internally to these machines. And some believe that we have gone too far already to even think of doing that effectively.

                        I can certainly see how in the midst of global chaos a very human looking android could be indwelt by a demonic force and fool the world.

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                        • #27
                          Great points all throughout this thread!
                          I'm reminded of an earlier verse in this chapter.

                          Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

                          Emphasis is me pointing out that in this case, the Spirit lead John to make it clear that this wound does not actually kill. It will SEEM like it did, but John is told to write it this way.

                          I think it's one of those we'll have to wait and see!

                          But, I sure do enjoy the discussion/digging into these fascinating verses.

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