Revelation 13 - Attempting to Understand

[Issachar]

I find myself often lately, going back to Revelation 13. I guess I'm sort of starting this thread as a means of getting more clarity. When I write stuff out, it tends to get more clear to me. But not always and probably not wholly. So writing it out here may be a step in the direction of more wholly.

I'm going to try and reasonably post the verses using a, b ... c if necessary. e.g. Revelation13:1a and Revelation 13:1b. If commenting on specific verses, it may be helpful to include the number/letter. And, I pray this is not out of place to ask, I would very much appreciate if comments are your own thoughts, not [simply] what a particular theology says about it (e.g. Arminianism, Methodism, Dispensationalism, Calvinism, etc.).

Revelation 13: 1a And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, . . .

Where a [the first] beast came from.


Revelation 13:
1b . . . with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Some description of the beast.

Revelation 13:
2a And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth.

More description of the [first] beast.

Revelation 13:
2b And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

"the dragon", as opposed to "a dragon" as in v.1; "a beast" as opposed to "the beast."

Revelation 13:
3a One [of seven; v.1] of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, . . .

One thing that happened to this [first] beast.

Revelation 13:
3b . . . and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

The whole earth's reaction to 13:3a as they followed the [first] beast.

Revelation 13:
4a And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, . . .

Worshipping the dragon because of what the dragon gave to the [first] beast

Revelation 13:
4b . . . and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"

Worshipping also, the [first] beast.

Revelation 13:
5a And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, . . .

the [first] beast given a mouth; blaspheming ..

Revelation 13:
5b . . . and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

For how long ..

Revelation 13:
6a It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name . . .

More blaspheming against God; His name . . .

Revelation 13:
6b . . . and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

Blaspheming also His dwelling .. and I am just [really] noticing this: ". . . that is, those who dwell in heaven." What?! 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, Isaiah 66:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:16 and many other verses.

Starting v.7 in next post.

Edit to add: I inadvertantly used the ESV. I meant to use the KJV. That's ok though ..

Issachar

[Issachar]

Continuing from post 1:

Revelation 13:
7a Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

"it", the [first] beast. Makes war on the saints. Conquers them.

Revelation 13:
7b And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, . . .

"it", the [first] beast is given authority over the whole earth.

Revelation 13:
8 . . . and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 13:
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

Revelation 13:
10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Verses 11-18 (rest of chapter) in next post.

Issachar

[Glorify Him]

I am preparing to give you my thoughts on this Issachar, not ignoring you at all. I just have to have time to sit down with my Bible, read it all and write a response.

[Andy]

Agreed!
I also recommended this thread to my sister.

[Issachar]

I am preparing to give you my thoughts on this Issachar, not ignoring you at all . . . .

Ha! Me too! I'm not ignoring me at all. I was actually kind of glad there were no posts yet until I get the rest of the chapter up. I'm still doing like 18-19 hour days and have to figure out time management, though at 70, I'm probably not going to succeed at that.

I believe that I can finish up with that this evening.

Blessings to all who are here.

Issachar

[gail]

https://www.bible-studys.org/Discove...pter%2013.html

Maybe this will help a little. I don’t know. It’s so hard to find agreement in many areas of Revelation. I noticed that it depends on the author’s personal end time view of events. The Book of Revelation being very symbolic makes it even more difficult to understand. I taught it several years ago to my group and it was a struggle like no other book in the Bible.

[Issachar]

Well, 2 AM again and I didn't get to post the rest. Tomorrow I should be able, earlier in the day.

Hi Gail and thanks for posting here. We'll see how it goes, but I personally am not looking for "this is what it means." Should the Lord take us in that direction, so be it. That is His call. But I am, at least at first, just looking to get clarity on who and what the players are what does each do and perhaps some understanding of what each does in his/it's role.

I noticed that it depends on the author’s personal end time view of events.

What I have been endeavoring to do, with much prayer, is realize that there is only one way that is correct concerning all scripture, including the unfolding of last days events. That one way, is God's way. He means something exact by His Word. I have been quite absent here in the past year. Not my choice exactly. I have given myself . . . or rather, have found myself given over to prayer and the study of God's Word like never before in my walk with the Lord since January 1974. I have never been involved in any of the many systematic theologies. I never heard of any of them until after I was in the way of salvation for many years. I never heard of calvinism, dispensationalism, etc. until relatively recent years. I went deep into each, and others, to see what is the correct one. I came away from all that believing in none. I find things that are true in each and things that seem to go against what I believe the Word is saying. So I'm just studying the Word. So it really doesn't matter what someone's "personal end time view" is, what matters is what is God's end time view. That is what I want to know. That is what I really, really want. God knows this. I believe it is true of all true Christians. We are truth seekers.

So hopefully early-ish tomorrow, I'll be able to say, "this time for sure."

I do not mind input at all from brothers and sisters that are calvinists or arminians or dispensationalists, etc. But in the end, it is God's Word and His meaning of it that matters.

John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Issachar

[Issachar]

finishing posting chapter 13:

Revelation 13:
11a Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth.

Where the [second] beast came from.

Revelation 13:
11b It had two horns like a lamb . . .

"it": [second beast]: Two horns like a lamb.

Revelation 13:
11c . . . and it spoke like a dragon.

"it":[second beast] spoke like a dragon.

Revelation 13:
12a It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, . . .

"it": [second beast] . . . "in its presence" ??

Revelation 13:

12b . . . and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.

[second] beast speaks as a dragon (11c) and this is more that it does.

Revelation 13:
13a It performs great signs, . . .

"Ir": [second beast]" more of what it does .. "great signs"

Revelation 13:
13b . . . even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, . . .

One of the signs

Revelation 13:
14a and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast . . .

The [second] beast's signs need to be "allowed" and they're in the presence of the [second] beast.

Revelation 13:
14b . . . it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast . . .

by those signs (14a) "it" [second beast] deceives .. telling them to make an image for the [first beast]

Revelation 13:
14c . . . that was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

(v.3a)

Revelation 13:
15a And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, . . .

"it": [second beast], is allowed to give breath ("life": KJV) (Greek: Pneuma) to the image of the beast, . . .

Revelation 13:
15b . . . so that the image of the beast might even speak . . .

the image of the beast is given breath (Pneuma) (15a) and now can speak.

Revelation 13:
15c . . . and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

It is the image of the beast, given breath (Pneuma), that can cause the death of those that would not worship itself (the image)

Revelation 13:
16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,

"it": Not sure if the second beast or the image of the [first] beast?

Revelation 13:
17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

The infamous "mark"; the name of the beast (which one?) or the number of its name.

Revelation 13:
18a This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, . . .

Wisdom NEEDED to calculate the number of the beast. Indeed!

Revelation 13:
18b . . . for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

Here we know it is the number of a man.

Well, that completes the groundwork of this discussion.

Issachar

[Issachar]

As we can see, there are a lot of details in this passage.

Two beasts; the first rises up out of the sea and the second rises up out of the earth.

One ... or two dragons? One dragon is up in v.2b. Second, or same one, in v.11c.

One image of the beast: 14b

The Mark ..v.17

I don't believe the discussion needs to be done sequentially. But please, as necessary for clarity of discussion sake, use the verse references.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Some things I believe to be true about this from way back.

First beast rising up from the sea (1a - 2a) is the antichrist. The dragon (2b) is satan.

The [first] beast has ten horns on seven heads and crowns of some sort on each horn and blasphemous names on it's seven heads (1b).

Is the [first] beast the ac? I still think so, but do not get the ten horns and seven heads.

I'm thinking the ac would look like a man. Although I don't think it is fruitful, many have tried to say this guy or that guy, over many years, "might be the ac."

But a man doesn't have ten horns and seven heads and, according to (2a), have a body like a leopard with a bears feet and mouth like a lion.

So I guess with this post, I'm wondering if others here believe that the first beast is the ac? v.18 says 666 is the number of a man, which I always (and still do) associated with the antichrist.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Daniel 7:1-8, I believe is somehow connected to post #10 (just above this one - I meant to include this with that). Daniel 7:4 is very interesting in that it says "the mind of a man was given to it." "It" being one of four beasts that rise up out of the sea after it is stirred up by "the four winds of heaven. (perhaps angels .. or just wind?)"

Issachar

[Doug Fowler]

I reallyjustnoticed 6b myself about a year ago, where it spoke of blaspheming those who dwell in Heaven.

The devil hates us so much, that he hates the literal eternal life we are given. The devil is the one giving the Beast power and utterance, I think. Perhapsthis is another sign thatthe Mark, later, is about loyalty and committing one's life to the devil. Because it's common even now - and has been for years - for people to put Christians down, to call us names, and so on.

I sense this is more than just saying "those d--- Christians don't like the world *we're* building based on our own anti-God works." That's hating us, but it's not blasphemy. It's just persecution, with a side of taking God's name in vain if they put "God" in front of it.

Blasphemy, to me, indicates that thebeast is going to claim that the spirit we have, the Holy Spirit, is actually evil.

I don't have time right now, but is the sme word used for blasphemy in the Greek here n 6b as it is in Matthew 12 where Jesus speaks of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? It wouldn't surprise me.

[Andy]

6b
Strong's
"blasphemy"

988 blasphemia {blas-fay-me'-ah}

from 989; TDNT - 1:621,107; n f

AV - blasphemy 16, railing 2, evil speaking 1; 19

1) slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
2) impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty

Yes, same Greek word used in Matthew 12:31

[Doug Fowler]

I thinkthe horns are why people think the first beast is the antichrist's government - and have comparedit to the beast of Daniel.

But, what strikes me is the deadly wound. Only one of the heads received it. Is this signficant?Could the AC be one of a group - the "first among equals" - and be killed and come back to life, "animated" by the devil? (Or the devil withhelp of AI?"

Rev. 17:12-14says the beast there has horns which represent kings, given one hour with the beast. So, could it be that this first beast represents both the man (rising out of the sea - usualy theGentiles - and so on) *and* the ten kings which shall receive power one hour with the Beast So that, in total, it represents both the antichrist and his government?

[Glorify Him]

As I really look into this part of Revelation, I think you have to include Chapter 12 as a kind of "prelude" to Chapter 13. In Chapter 12 V. 3 Satan is referred to as the Red Dragon. The Beast is, I believe, the AC.

All of the rest of Chapter 12 is relevant in my opinion to understanding that there is a war taking place in heaven before the AC is revealed as the Beast in Chapter 13. Traditionally the horns and heads have been interpreted them to be nations, empires, that sort of thing and I agree with that because it tells us that the Beast wears crowns or diadems which are the signs of authority, kingship and power. I personally believe that the One World Govt. is represented by the crowns which will be the "areas" or "zones" the OWG will divide the earth into. This is not dissimilar to what Klaus Schwab and his cronies talk about to create a "more level" playing field for the poorer nations. Remember they have said "you will own nothing and be happy." All of this is the World Economic Forum which has members of powerful and politically affiliated people from almost every nation if not every nation. Klaus Schwab recently was quoted as saying he will live well into his 100s. How? The use of medical advances including nano technology and AI. If we have another global "pandemic" which Bill Gates assures us is on the way......I believe it will be a genetically engineered plague to thin out the population, things will become extremely hard on this planet. Just look at what happened with Covid 19, the shortages, fear, etc. A great opportunity to bring forward the One World Religion which I now believe will be a joining of the 3 Abrahamic religions which represent the vast majority of the global population. As for the term "blasphemy" is there any greater blasphemy than calling the One and Only Son of God equal to or surpassed by Mohammed? Think about it. The "church" gets blasphemed on a daily basis but to me, that would be the Ultimate Blasphemy. I am going to pause on this here but I have more thoughts on this Scripture that I will share. It takes me a while to put it all together at my age and I am trying to share what Holy Spirit has shown me. I'll be back and edit this to add more.