700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

[Guest]

City imposes water rationing; heat, high use put pressure on pipes across central US

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44160515.../#.TktKv5mh7Tw

[Guest]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

I'm hearing this kind of comment across all municipalities.
Complaints that roads and bridges are desperately in need of repair.
My question is this:
Where is all the tax money going that was collected for the very purpose of maintaining the roads and water pipes?
Isn't the principle reason for local government the oversight of basic necessities, utilities and protection?

Where is that tax income going?

Please someone, trace those tax dollars and report !!

[Guest]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

the money for roads is being spent to try to balance the bloated city and state budgets to pay for govt employee retirement funds. San Diego is $200 million behind in pension fund payments.........

just like the 10 cents? per gallon tax supposed to be used for roads...... the state recently wanted another tax for roads and the calif residents said NO !!!

we told them we are already giving you money for roads and you are stealing it !!!

[Issachar]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

The U.S. government is comprised of people. We see the same incompetency in private business as we see in government. The problem is the sin nature of man, not whether he is in government or private business. This is why all systems made by man, run down. In this fallen world, entropy always will win.

As some of us have posted in the past .. it is AMAZING how many hundreds of billions of U.S. dollars are used every year to rebuild the infrastructure of other nations. The numbers are staggering where the U.S. has built new roads, schools, power stations, water systems, etc., etc., etc. ... in Iraq. Once they're done bombing the snot out of Libya, they will do the same thing there. They've already started in Afghanistan.

The U.S. itself? eh ... what's a few hundred water main breaks per day? A collapsed bridge now and then .. an occassional exploding gas line .. Hey, at least other countries are getting good stuff.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

... increased water use builds pressure from inside pipes, ...

That seems strange. More water use, meaning more open valves, should reduce pressure in the water lines. Maybe they just didn't want to put too much detail in the article .. the breaks might be due to too much on and off/surging .. ???

I thought this was kind of funny:

"The nationwide infrastructure is getting older," he added, ...

Yes, everyday, everything is older. (except PB .. he's a kid always. )

I know that it is asking too much to even suggest this, but life's experience says that everything will get older and break down. Life's experience also teaches us that we need to save something towards that day, so when it gets here, we can pay for the repair. If we spend it for every little thing that comes along, we won't have the means to repair when something breaks. Obviously, some things are regular ... rent/mortgage, utilities, insurances, etc. and some things are irregular, but inevitable .. e.g. water heater goes out, car breaks, etc. So too for cities, counties, states and the nation, there are regular monthly, quarterly and annual bills due and something must be set aside for the irregular inevitables .. e.g. water main breaks, bridge repair, building maintenance, etc., etc. ... So why is nothing set aside for these things? Why, when some pol wants to spend money on something, is it's funding not considered? Individually we have to. So societally we have to too. This is not rocket science. It's not brain surgery. It's not even tinker toy complicated (depending on what you build with those things .. I got pretty extravagant with them sometimes. ). This will break. We don't know when. We better save something each month.

Now, if a city council or county board or state/federal government want to spend money on something .. fine, if there is funding for it. But taking the money set aside for infrastructure and other necessities, is not exactly "funding." If they want to spend more and the money for it is not there ... easy, go to the voters, tell them what the new project is and how much it will cost each taxpayer, and let them mail in a check for it. If you don't get enough, you don't get the new project. If you get too much (ha-ha), put the extra in the fix-infrastructure-fund. If not enough is received, return to sender any funds received since all the bases of government were already covered anyway.

If any of the above gets waaaaay to complicated at the federal level, then simply turn over a lot of the responsibilities to the states and, if necessary, to the counties .. etc.

Too bad the above, or something similar, is about as likely as the central bank (fed) going away or a perpetual motion machine being invented ..

Issachar .. taking a minute to leave the logic free zone of the "world."

[cornerstone33]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

They spent the money on worthless things, they never put the money aside and kept up with everything. The cities are old, and the pipes underneath are in need of repair in all Cities. They put bandaids on these things, and it just doesn't hold. Then you have the bridges, they are not safe at all, I really wonder how good they kept up with them? I don't trust it..

[Guest]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

Here is where I put in a plug for "investor owned" water and wastewater companies. I retired from the largest one in the US, American Water Co., which is located in varying degrees in 27 + states. The largest system they own serves 1.2 million people here in St. Louis Co. The irony is that the City of St. Louis still owns its system (serving about 400,000) which is continually deteriorating like most municipal owned systems, whereas, the rest of the County's system is kept up to date (by law) with less outages and operational problems.

Investor owned systems (IOS) are regulated by State regulatory bodies, Public Service Commissions, as they are usually called. Whereas, municipal owned systems are governed by the City councils, which have the power to raise rates with only a majority vote, within one meeting. Of course, they have to be careful to not do something drastic and get voted out of office, so they prolong raising rates over decades, causing rate shock when they do and much larger costs to finally repair failing systems. No one makes sure that they are replacing and repairing the aging infrastructure, either and instead, as Lewis and Cornerstone pointed out, defer the funds to pet projects, other City services, etc. This is illegal but Cities are self monitoring in this area!

It typically takes State Commissions about a year to grant rate increases to Investor Owned Systems, following much investigation and review! Investor owned systems MUST repair and replace deteriorating infrastructure each year or the regulators can insist that the rates be lowered. A novel concept, but it actually works pretty well. In general, rates are slightly higher (because of property taxes paid to the Cities) but service is more reliable, safer and much better. Their is a tendency to use newer technology, keep the infrastructure up to date and operate more efficiently, also!

Don't confuse private systems that are owned by developers, just built to get their subdivision lots sold, with these same large, well established investor owned systems, since they are also regulated by the State! Investor owned systems work better because most of the politics are taken out of operating the system!

[beeleever]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

I think the over 100 degree days have helped our Texas soil to shift and create great strain on pipes.
No way to over ride that unless all the pipes are made of elastic!

[Issachar]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

I think the over 100 degree days have helped our Texas soil to shift and create great strain on pipes.
No way to over ride that unless all the pipes are made of elastic!

That is true. The high temps do place strain on the pipes. If they are in good condition though, they can mostly take the strain. So the extra hot weather for an extra extended time, is showing up an existing problem; that is, old pipes that are beyond their life expectancy:

Nationally, the American Society of Civil Engineers has graded the U.S. water infrastructure as a D- and noted that many water mains are beyond their designed life span of 65-95 years.

"Leaking pipes lose an estimated 7 billion gallons of clean drinking water a day," the society said in its most recent report card.

That is a lot of water lost, daily. Not just the water, but the electric that was used to pump it, the wear on the whole system to process it, the cost of treatment ... all leaked. So it is a very expensive loss. Too bad that same money can't be used to fix the pipes/system.

"Drinking water systems face an annual shortfall of at least $11 billion in funding needed to replace aging facilities that are near the end of their useful life and to comply with existing and future federal water regulations," it added.

11 billion/330 million (people) = $33.00 So if 33 dollars were set aside, annually, for every person in the U.S. (I think the pop. is about 330 million now ..) ... $132 per family of four .. we'd have the 11 billion needed to satisfy the shortfall each year. According to the above quote, that includes replacing aging facilities. The trouble is .. if folks sent in that money, it may get grabbed up for something else. I know this math is likely on the simplistic side and certainly the logistics of doing this is on the simplistic side .. but still, if it means water or not ...

Kail, the AWWA spokesman, notes that most of the nation's water pipes were installed in three periods: the late 1800s, the 1920s and the post World War II era.

"In many parts of the country those pipes are all wearing out at about the same time," he says, noting that a 2001 AWWA study estimated it would cost $250 billion to repair or replace aging water pipes.

Cities can either fix the pipes before or after they break, but before is much cheaper, Kail argues.

This kind of confirms what I was trying to say in my previous post about budgeting for this sort of thing. They know how old the systems are and they know how long they are designed to last. With an onsite trainer(s) and overseers, people on welfare and other public assistance, that are physically able, could supply some .. maybe a lot, of the labor on the local level. That's labor for system maintenance/repair that is already being paid for. Most people, I believe, that are on public assistance, would rather not be and as long as they are, they'd like to be able to feel like they contributed to the whole of society.

Issachar .. probably thinking on this too much.

[Guest]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

You are right Ish. money has to be put aside each year for infrastructure. Investor Owned Systems (ISO) have to replace at least as much as what their system depreciates, annually, or they can be made to lower rates. Most states value all of the pipes, plants, meters, water tanks, etc. as the rate base and it determines the rates. Each year depreciation is subtracted from the rate base (basis for rates), and the rate base grows smaller unless new pipes, tanks, etc. are installed. There again, this only applies to IOS and not municipal owned systems. As a result, IOS tend to not have these types of problems.

Many big cities have water loss rates of 20 to 30% of total produced. We tried to keep our loss rates below 10%. IOS can be made to do studies, by the regulators, on why their losses are greater than this. But there is no requirement for municipal owned systems to keep losses down! It is totally up to the cities to determine what they should do.

[Issachar]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

It is totally up to the cities to determine what they should do.

It seems .. since cities are actually the people; the people that pay for it all .. that since the people pay directly for this processed, lost water, that they would self regulate and make sure the leakage is addressed. Imagine 10-20 percent coming off of the water bill.

If someone tilled the soil, planted, ... cared for say, a vegetable garden and discovered that some critters were taking up to 30% of the food, I imagine they'd do something to try and keep the critters out.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: 700 water main breaks in Houston — a day

Issachar,

I remember one summer back in the late 80's, I was managing a small investor owned water system in the suburbs of Columbus OH, your home state. We were in an extended drought and under watering restrictions and one of the local TV reporters got a tip that the City was not repairing leaks that were losing as much as a million gallons of water a day. The City responded that, (paraphrasing) "well you have to realize that we are pumping 300 million gallons of water a day right now and a million gallons is not a high priority!" I swear (not really) that is what they said.

Columbus has a pretty well operated system but being municipally owned there is a certain bureaucratic mind set that defies logic! It seems all forms of government (local, state or federal) breed mediocre results at best. There are some exceptions, but they are the exception, IMO!