Rapture Question

Are these Scriptures referencing the same event - the Rapture of the Church only??

Or are some in reference to the 2nd Coming?

If the 3rd quote is in reference to the Rapture, then in the pre-trib scenario, will know who the AC is? It seems clear that it will be the Mahdi, whoever that is.

1Thes5

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day.

1Thes 4

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2Thes2

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[Andy]

Re: Rapture Question

You've asked a fantastic question here ... one of the main missions of our board has always been to preach/teach the pre-tribulation doctrine. Back in 1996 when the board was started the founder was sick of all the so-called prophecy boards and the lack of solid, pre-trib ONLY teaching on a site and that's what he set out to do with WeDG.

In that spirit I want to caution any posters not to present any doctrine that contradicts this teaching (in accordance with the Rules of Posting). We know this is a doctrine that is highly controversial.

Having said that I wish I had the time to really answer your question, Butterfly - I simply don't right now. Suffice it to say that I don't know what translation you used but the third passage where "Rebellion" is used - KJV gives it a translation of "falling away". In the end the Greek, apostasia, is very difficult to translate to English and suggest some type of "departure" from something. Sure, it can mean a falling away of doctrine or truth - but what if it does suggest a "departure" of "the restrainer" (2 Thes 2:7)? And - what if the "restrainer" is (as I believe it is) the body of Christ? Remove this massive, praying, influential "restraint" and then the lawless one can be revealed.

That's all I have time for now - I hope some of my fellow pre-tribbers will step in. Also, for clarification, when we say, "Pre-trib" please understand we're referring to "Pre-70th week" (of Daniel 9). We teach that the body of Christ, the church or bride, will be removed for the entire 7-year period that makes up that 70th 'week'.

[Guest]

Re: Rapture Question

Butterfly, the second quote you present is exactly the one that caused me to (finally) believe in a "rapture" in the first place. I had never held to that doctrine, and it was that I Thess verse that connected - compliments of Jack Kinsella, by the way.

Your third quote is an interesting one, and I interpret it in this context. Some of the Thessalonians apparently had gotten the notion that Christ had already come back (His Second Coming) and they had "somehow missed the boat." That is a notion that is still alive in some circles, by the way. The quote is simply to assure them that they still have a hope of getting to Heaven, because at that time, Christ still had not come back. I don't know whether it's referring to the "Rapture" or the "Second Coming" - to me it doesn't matter. In context, it was simply reassuring them that both events were still in the future.

Your first quote, again, IMHO, probably refers to the Second Coming, but might refer to the Rapture. Again, to me, this is assuring us that "rapture timing" is a useless endeavor. At the same time, however, when we see certain events happening, very much as we see world events unfolding in these days, those of us who are called to be Watchmen, are to be alert, because the "time is right" for the Rapture to occur, and then later for the Lord to return in what we recognize as the Second Coming.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, huh!

So of those 3 quotes, the only one I hang on to as defining a pre-trib Rapture is #2, but the others are applicable to these times as well.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Guest]

Re: Rapture Question

1Thess4 states the rapture and 7 year trib period wont catch us by surprise.
1thess5 is the rapture
2thess2/3
I agree with Andy ..

it can mean a falling away of doctrine or truth - but what if it does suggest a "departure" of "the restrainer" (2 Thes 2:7)? And - what if the "restrainer" is (as I believe it is) the body of Christ? Remove this massive, praying, influential "restraint" and then the lawless one can be revealed.

[Boston]

Re: Rapture Question

1Thess4 states the rapture and 7 year trib period wont catch us by surprise.
1thess5 is the rapture
2thess2/3
I agree with Andy ..

Ditto to Lewisb

[Butterfly]

Re: Rapture Question

I used NIV for the above passages. I am using now the 1599 Geneva Bible on these same passages

http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html

2 Thessalonians 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him, that ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

(underline is mine)

This is the Geneva Bible online. Scroll down to each book you want look at on PDF with the original text and footnotes. This is the Bible that the Pilgrims used which pre-dates the KJV, but the footnotes are probably off base.

So the Departing comes first and then the AC is revealed? And when they say "peace and safety" that refers to the September Palestinian statehood/dividing Israel deal to 1967 borders... ??? Oh, please Lord, let it be!

I re-posted the passages from the Geneva Bible which refers to the Rapture.
What do you guys think? We could be outta here before Christmas?!


I Corinthians 15:51-53,

"...Behold, I shew you a secret thing; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

1Thes 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus is dead, and is risen, even so them which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this say we unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which live, and are remaining in the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which sleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Thes 5:2

For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord shall come, even as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then shall come upon them sudden destruction, as the travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day shall come on you, as it were a thief.

[Andy]

Re: Rapture Question

So hard to say, Butterfly. So many things have happened over the past few decades, each of them seeming to have the potential to be "the one" that sets the final stage and, in the end, it's just one more foreshadowing of things to come. I remember when the Oslo agreements were signed...Camp David...etc. We all wondered, "Could this be it??" Yet we're still here and this means God's grace continues to reach out to the lost and this is what we are to be about...our Father's business. Yes, we long to be home but while we're here we are to keep our focus on what is our calling. We are to "be Jesus" to those that need to hear about His love...hope in a hopeless world.

[Butterfly]

Re: Rapture Question

Yes, Andy I am commited to speak of forgiveness in Jesus wherever I can and have been doing that.

What's different between the Oslo Accords and now is today the world is in the beginning stages of a world wide Muslim Califate; the NAU mandate in 2012; the thing with the Mayan calandar in 2012; the financial collapse of the U.S. and much of Europe; the dollar losing its status as world's reserve currency; a one world monitary system; the 12th Imam .....

I just hope this is the moment when Daniel 9:27 can come to pass and the rest to follow after the Church is taken out of the way..........

[Andy]

Re: Rapture Question

With the exception of the Mayan calendar I sure do agree with you, sister. The world stage today is SO set and ready for the final "act" of God's "play-book". I don't mean that in an irreverent way at all but it sure is fascinating watching the events unfold and/or watch as God fulfills every detail of His Word. Things that perhaps don't make sense right now due to whatever not being quite "right" for fulfillment will come together - with us here to view it or whether we're with Him in glory. The JW's don't believe there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem because the Dome of the Devil is sitting where it is...so what? God can change anything He wants at the blink of an eye. "We walk by faith, not by sight"!