Are disasters GOD's judgment?

[Guest]

Certainly many have reason to think so....... and Japan is a heathen nation with fewer believers than were in Communist Russia......

as we approach the end we will see even more of this:

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

[Issachar]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

I have mixed thoughts on this matter. In a very real sense, imho, nations like the U.S. should be inundated with "judgements" by now with it's stated desire to divide Israel, the current president's shirking of the Israeli Prime Minister, the government sacnctioned murder of unborn children, the law allowing generation/distribution of all manner of filth, not the least of which is porn and satanic literature, most horrible film/movies/"music", the nation's fascination with entertainment vs. God/God's Word, the government backed blocking of prayer, Bible, etc. in public institutions ... on and on; the list is long. Same goes for so many other nations.

Then there verses like these:
John 12:
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I believe that v.47 is a part of the Covenant we are now under.

But we also have this:
Genesis 12:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Now for many years, I have believed and still do, that nothing happens by "chance" or "accidentally" ... including earthquakes, floods, etc.

Also I'm not sure what to think about so many affected by these disasters that seemingly have nothing to do with what may have purportedly brought them about.

I do believe that God does things/allows things for the purpose of trying to draw in more .. make them turn to Him ..

Issachar

[Boston]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Before I call something a judgment I would like first to see or hear of the ENTIRE pattern in a lot of scripture happening like: a prophet or message warning the people before hand to repent.

Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

A whack out of the clear blue …. What’s the point? There is no need to destroy for sin those who are going to die in a short time anyway from the original curse.

Even in revelations I see the heart of a rescue mission, the execution of judgment at the hands of a righteous God is always in my mind - in defence of the faithful, short or long term.

[Guest]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Isaiah 29:6 came to mind...and Amos 1:1; 8:1-9

Isaiah 29:6

Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

Amos 1:1
1 The words of Amos, one of the shepherds of Tekoa—the vision he saw concerning Israel two years before the earthquake, when Uzziah was king of Judah and Jeroboam son of Jehoash[a] was king of Israel.


Amos 8

1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: a basket of ripe fruit. 2 “What do you see, Amos?” he asked.
“A basket of ripe fruit,” I answered.

Then the LORD said to me, “The time is ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.

3 “In that day,” declares the Sovereign LORD, “the songs in the temple will turn to wailing.[a] Many, many bodies—flung everywhere! Silence!”

4 Hear this, you who trample the needy
and do away with the poor of the land,

5 saying,

“When will the New Moon be over
that we may sell grain,
and the Sabbath be ended
that we may market wheat?”—
skimping on the measure,
boosting the price
and cheating with dishonest scales,
6 buying the poor with silver
and the needy for a pair of sandals,
selling even the sweepings with the wheat.

7 The LORD has sworn by himself, the Pride of Jacob: “I will never forget anything they have done.

8 “Will not the land tremble for this,
and all who live in it mourn?
The whole land will rise like the Nile;
it will be stirred up and then sink
like the river of Egypt.

9 “In that day,” declares the Sovereign LORD,

“I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.

[MoreThanConquerors]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Is it God's judgement against the people who die in car accidents?

Is it God's judgement against a child's parents when that child dies from cancer?

Is it God's judgement against a woman who gets raped and then murdered?

Is it God's judgement against the City of Columbine during the school shootings a few years ago?

Or God's judgement against the Amish during their school shootings?

Is it God's judgement for any number of bad things that happen to both good and bad people in this world?

Is it because this is such a large scale catastrophe that it spawns such ludicrous statements as this being God's judgement?

How about this: We live in a fallen, decaying world.....and this stuff happens, and we have a God of grace and love, and a chosen people of grace and love, who (in times like this) can really let their lights shine by helping when disasters like this happen, rather than point fingers and say "Your country is destroyed because God hates you".

[Guest]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Very well said, MTC and I agree with you completely.

[Issachar]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

So is or will there be, something that is God's judgement? If yes, what would it look like? Would any people be hurt? We know that God judged the world and sent a global flood; saving only 8 human beings. We know that God judged certain people groups and commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child .. even animals. While I do not believe that will happen in these days, it is still real in history. God judged the Jews and used the Babylonians. Then there was Sodom and Gomorrah ... and Ananias and Sapphira ...

I would not personally be quick to call thoughts/questions on this matter "ludicrous." It may be .. but needs study first, imho.

Does God judge individuals and/or nations today? What if a nation turns agains Israel, in light of Genesis 12:3? Are there people today that could count as having warned a nation? I really like Boston's thought on the warn-then-reject-then-judged thought. Still thinking on that one. cnav put up some interesting scriptures too.

No one that I know of or have heard of that is of sound doctrine, would believe that a woman being raped and then murdered would be God "judging" that woman. Or the parents losing a child to cancer, etc. There were many murdered and abused before the flood but that wasn't God "judging" the individuals .. but with a global flood, He did judge the whole world ..

Issachar, just thinking out loud here ...

[MoreThanConquerors]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

No, it is ludicrous.

Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it. He is the friend of sinners, the one who sits with prostitutes and tax collectors, that touches lepers and women with unclean bleeding issues.

The only time Jesus got physically angry in the gospel were against the Pharisees, not the "heathen".

Jesus didn't come down with compassion and mercy for the lost, only to go back to heaven and create earthquakes and tsunamai's to kill people in judgement.

It IS ludicrous.

We jump to conclusions just because of the number of people involved. Because it seems THAT devestating to us, it must be divine. To me, its superstition. Something the Greeks would have done in the creation of their god's. Something to explain human tragedy.

Japan sits in the ring of fire. What happened is part of a decaying world. Earthquakes would not have happened after the fall and we are suffering it's natural decay. What happened in Japan will probably happen again in areas with that kind of a fault line.

Judgement? When I see hail made of fire, and rivers turn to blood, then I will consider judgement. And when I see a prophet of God stand up and issue warning, then I will consider.

[Issachar]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

Yes He did. I quoted that in post #2 from John 12.

He is the friend of sinners, the one who sits with prostitutes and tax collectors, that touches lepers and women with unclean bleeding issues.

John 15:
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

There are passages where others call Jesus the friend of sinners .. but here, He calls those friends, who do whatsoever He commands them. In my mind, the jury is still out on that one ... that in itself would prove to be quite a study.

The only time Jesus got physically angry in the gospel were against the Pharisees, not the "heathen".

I'm wondering if those that Jesus drove out of the temple, the moneychangers, were Pharisees? It doesn't say in Matthew 21. We do know that Jesus sat with sinners though and showed them the way to life everlasting. But if they didn't believe ...

Mark 6:
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

v.11 isn't counting these lost as "friends."

Jesus didn't come down with compassion and mercy for the lost, only to go back to heaven and create earthquakes and tsunamai's to kill people in judgement.

I don't think anyone is saying exactly that.

It IS ludicrous.

Folks are using scripture in their wonderings. Saying that though, I agree about the fallen world/planet; ring of fire, etc. Stuff happens in this fallen world.

We jump to conclusions just because of the number of people involved.

No one is jumping to conclusions in this thread and it is conceivable about numbers of people ... Sodom & Gomorrah, global flood ... I don't blame anyone for wondering that even if it has nothing to do with judgement.

Because it seems THAT devestating to us, it must be divine. To me, its superstition. Something the Greeks would have done in the creation of their god's. Something to explain human tragedy.

The folks here know about tectonics (to some degree), tsunamis, etc. It's not hardly the same thing as the Greeks and their gods. (mho)

What happened in Japan will probably happen again in areas with that kind of a fault line.

True. Likely, this year.

Judgement? When I see hail made of fire, and rivers turn to blood, then I will consider judgement. And when I see a prophet of God stand up and issue warning, then I will consider.

I'm with ya on that one. When I see those things ...

Issachar, just wonderin' still ..

[Guest]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

interesting response to crisis..... helping one another!!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...ting-in-japan/

[Andy]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

I happen to think this nation is very ripe for judgment.
What do we suppose that will look like when it happens?

It's clear reading these posts who has the gift of Mercy as their primary gift and who has the other gifts, such as Prophecy (NOT fore-telling). I recognize it because my precious bride has Mercy as her chief gift and mine is not and we've had many-a-discussion about these same topics.

In the end God is both Love AND Light. In His realm they coincide perfectly. While judgment is His "strange work" He cannot ignore His HOLINESS. We cannot forget how much He HATES sin. Yes, He loves the sinner, but eventually His grace must give way to His Holiness and when that happens people do often die. Am I saying what happened in Japan is His judgment? I have no idea...His thoughts are above my thoughts and His ways above mine. He has a perfect purpose for everything He allows...this much we do know. He has a plan that is unfolding day-by-day and in the end it will ALL bring Him glory. We must be careful or we'll try to put God into a box - on either side. Can God condemn sinners to an eternity of torment? Yes, folks, He can...and yet we know He loves those sinners infinitely more than we can ever imagine. HOW can those two statements be true? Again, we cannot judge God by our standards. I quoted it partially now I'll quote the whole passage:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[Boston]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

In the end God is both Love AND Light. In His realm they coincide perfectly. .

the goodness and the severity

It’s the same God of Abraham’s starry sky, who chose to walk in this dirt.

It’s the same God who sent his prophet to save his enemy Nineveh, who spoke against Capernaum saying, “You shall be thrust down to hell”.

It’s the same God who gave the words of a covenant, that his own may prosper, who commanded the rich young ruler to “sell all what you have, and give to the poor.

It’s the same God of old saying, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love: with loving kindness have I drawn thee”, who declared “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sister, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

It’s the same God who proclaimed “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:”, who warned “He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.”

It’s the same God who writes, “He forgives all your iniquities; he heals all thy diseases; He redeems thy life from destruction; he crowns thee with loving kindness and tender mercies;” who told his church “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.”

It’s the same God who prophesied his name to be “the prince of peace” who declared “Do you think I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division."

It is the same God who promised “I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.” who vowed “He who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God.”

It is the same God who cared for Hagar and Ishmael in their rejection who cleansed his own temple with whips.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

It is the same Lord who healed the centurion’s servant with a word, who filled the shore with dead Egyptians.

It is the same Lord who refused to condemn the woman caught in adultery, who wrote with his finger on the tablet “Thou shall not…”

It is the same Lord who said “I am the resurrection and the life”, who gave the command to leave the garden and “this very day you shall die.”

It is the same Lord who told the leper to put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, “Be thou clean”, who turned the flesh of Miriam white.

It is the same Lord who came not to call the righteous, but to call sinners to repentance, who rained fire down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sparing righteous Lot.

It is the same Lord who fulfilled all the law who commanded the pages of the law to be written.

It is the same Lord who chose the criminal death of a cross in our place, who required that payment for our rebellion.

It is the same Lord born a lowly birth in the mud of a Bethlehem stable, whose breath created all that we know.

Beholding the goodness and severity of God is wise, it is best to head into things with both eyes open.

pm January 2009

[Guest]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

In November of last year, Japan encouraged the Palestinian Authority in its efforts to create a pali state, and pledged financial assistance to that end. You can read all the details Here and Here.

I have been looking to see whether Japan has formally acknowledged palestine as a nation or not, but given the above, I don't think that has been the case.

However, I think there may be some credence to the thought that Japan may have "denounced" Israel, although I haven't seen any specific corroboration of that.

Suffice it to say that the Bible is chock full of examples where God "caused" a nation to do thus and so, so that he could "punish" them, for the express purpose of either delivering a message to Israel, or delivering a message to other nations.

Jesus is one of the members of the singular God. Jesus came to seek and to save. At the same time God has a distinct way of making examples of all sorts of things - for the purpose of affecting the lives of people.

Earthquake - this earthquake - come from God? Nuclear problems come from God? I surely don't know. But I DO believe that God isn't in too good of a mood right now, given how the World - and I mean everybody - is lining up against His land and His people. And if this is just nature, I'd not be interested in seeing what God could cook up.

Nope, not this PlumBob. Running away from the coasts!

[Guest]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

The following links, all from the same Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, while not specifically addressing what I was thinking of as "denouncing" Israel, in my post above, show a very definite preference for the PA and not Israel.

Thanks to Lewis for these.

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/annou...3/0311_01.html

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/annou...2/0210_02.html

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/annou...2/0208_02.html

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/annou...1/0111_04.html

[Issachar]

Re: Are disasters GOD's judgment?

Very interesting stuff PB and/or Lewis.

Issachar