Here's a question for ya

[Guest]

What do you think about the Jewish people (not messianic Jews) and the Church being the Two Witnesses?

Let me just put this link here to a pdf article that makes a compelling case for this. You only need to read a few pages, (large print, fast read) and let me know what you think.

http://fishhouseministries.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

[Issachar]

Re: Here's a question for ya

hmm .. the link isn't opening for me. ???

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Without having been able to read at the link yet, my initial thought is, no. I'm wondering about v.12 above ... if speaking of Jews not yet born again, could they be called up to heaven?

Issachar

[Andy]

Re: Here's a question for ya

The author of this makes a point that I've contemplated for years. Does a person have to know the NAME of Jesus to be saved? Or (since every single human that has the ability to make a conscious choice is "without excuse" ) can someone in a remote part of the world look at creation, realize (by faith and the Spirit of God) that he/she is vile in their heart, that their only hope is forgiveness by "God" (this person wouldn't even necessarily know how to address God)....you get the point. ALL salvation is by the shed blood and the Name of Jesus.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The OT Saints did not know that a Man, fully God and fully Man, Named Jesus, would one day pay for their sins by dying on the cross...right? But their still justified by faith...Paul talks at length about this regarding Abraham being justified by faith outside of the Law of Moses...and I would contend that he was justified by faith outside of the knowledge that his justification would be provided by Jesus Christ.

I know this can get contraversal...people really thrashed Billy Graham when he tried to teach something similar to this.

Whether this can be true of ppl living in today's populated areas only God knows. the first time someone hears of Jesus and rejects that person is lost...and I would contend that person was lost before they heard, too. Flip-side...look at Simeon..living in the temple, knowing one day his salvation would come to him before he dies. He's a believer long before baby Jesus is born or brought to him in the temple. As SOON as he lays eyes on Jesus he knows his salvation is complete and he can die in peace. By the same token, if someone is a believer by faith alone w/o knowing the actual source of their forgiveness, if/when they DO hear of Jesus I would submit they would instantly fall to their knees, praising God for revealing to them the precious Name and glad-tidings of HOW he/she was saved.

*whew*
Hope I don't need a flame-proof suit for this...looking forward to others' responses.

[Issachar]

Re: Here's a question for ya

I wonder similar things Andy.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

What do you think about the Jewish people (not messianic Jews) and the Church being the Two Witnesses?

........No ...........

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

this scripture makes it quite plain that the two witnesses are two men, probably Enoch and Elijah.......

the 144,000 trib era witnesses are young Jewish men, virgins ......


all the Jews refusing Jesus over the last 2000 years went to hell........

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

Issachar, here's a link that you can get to that pdf. Look to the left side and click on Part 2 of the False Prophet.

http://fishhouseministries.com/

[Issachar]

Re: Here's a question for ya

probably Enoch and Elijah.......

heh-heh .. I think that too as a possibility, but not sure I'd say "probably." But hey .. it may be.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

I think this author makes it clear through scripture that Old Testament Jews were saved thru faith, not doctrine, like we are saved through faith, EVEN today because of the blinding by God.

I thought the scripture about the "not putting new wine in old wine sacks" was interesting.



You guys, I really wish I could convey to you all how much this author, this book, seems to make a whole lot of sense to me. I know..., I've ALWAYS believed what has been taught here about prophecy my ENTIRE life..., and I'm not spring chicken.

Part 1 of The False Prophet is EXTREMELY interesting and I wish we could discuss some of it here..., not be afraid of just discussing something that is contrary to what we've always know, always accepted.

I can't help but go back to Daniel and what was told to him about "sealing up the book until the time of the end," and really, really wonder if now we could possibly get a better picture of prophecy because we are living in the time of the end as opposed to what was taught to us years and years ago before Israel becoming a nation and Jerusalem becoming their capital.

http://fishhouseministries.com/

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

Issachar, at that same link. in Part I of False Prophet, it talks about Rev 11:4

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The author uses Hermeneutics to try to discover who these two olive trees and two candlesticks are.

If you download the pdf, and go to page 59, "Chapter 6, Two Witnesses" he explains how he came to the conclusion that they are the church and the Jewish people.

Like I said, you have to lay aside years and years of teaching we've had and simply go into this teaching with no predetermined ideas of you think end time teaching should be. It just so happens that this author does not believe in the rapture of the church at the beginning of the tribulation period. I can lay that aside and say, "ok, why does he believe that" and "what do I think scripture is saying in light of what he teaches."

Am I saying he's right? Nope

Am I saying I'm right in what I believe Revelation teaches? Nope

What I am saying is that we need to dig a little deeper and see if the Holy Spirit is saying something else.

[Andy]

Re: Here's a question for ya

When the literal sense of scripture, in context, makes sense...seek no other sense. I'm not quoting that quite right but Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum says that in "Footsteps of the Messiah" when talking about interpreting prophetic scripture (any scripture, actually). When I read through all of Revelation 11 I can not see this being anything other than two individuals that God raises up. I also looked at the Greek behind "Witnesses" in verse 3 and "Prophets" in verse 10...then I compared those Greek words to where else they show up in the NT. I'm sorry, I cannot see that this is anything more than two, literal, individuals that God raises up for this exact purpose. The text just doesn't seem to allow for this referring to an unknown number (thousands? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of witnesses. Plus this interpretation also appears to disagree with a pre-70th week rapture of the church since it shows the church here during this time, working in tandum with the faithful of Israel.

Too many things have to be changed, not just in "how I believe" because this is how I've always believed...but because how I've always believed, in my view of scripture, seems to still hold strong to the interpretation OF those scriptures. I can't just change that. I've been studying prophetic scripture and am the first to agree that our interpretation of it will get clearer and clearer as the time draws nigh but this one....I don't see it holding to the congruency of ALL prophetic scripture.

That's my HO/feedback.

[Andy]

Re: Here's a question for ya

Sorry, didn't mean to repeat myself...that comes with trying to type between tickets @ work.

[M from M]

Re: Here's a question for ya

moi` basic answer to Question post # 1 is




No.


bb-when-time-allows


BE BLESS't

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

This doesn't add any new light on this discussion, but I've always felt that 1) the closer we get the clearer our understanding will be, as Andy said before, and 2) there is just a WHOLE BUNCH of stuff that we don't, and won't understand. Particularly as it pertains to subjects such as this. Hence, my reason to do what I can, within the understanding I have.

Can the person in the deepest darkest part of Africa be saved without hearing the name Jesus? I sure hope so!

[Guest]

Re: Here's a question for ya

This doesn't add any new light on this discussion, but I've always felt that 1) the closer we get the clearer our understanding will be, as Andy said before, and 2) there is just a WHOLE BUNCH of stuff that we don't, and won't understand. Particularly as it pertains to subjects such as this. Hence, my reason to do what I can, within the understanding I have.

Can the person in the deepest darkest part of Africa be saved without hearing the name Jesus? I sure hope so!

I have always though Romans 1:19 and 20 answered that question.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

For what it's worth, there was an excellent discussion on this a while back. It started off as something about Roseann Barr, but was later changed to ""Salvation" Discussion - Does One Have To Know Jesus' Name To Be Saved?"

[Glorify Him]

Re: Here's a question for ya

Andy, you have stated very well, things that I have contemplated for years. A just and loving God has to have provision for those that have never heard, literally the name of Jesus. I have come to the conclusion that because God's love for mankind is so vast and deep, and He wants no one to be lost for eternity, before a person dies, somehow, someway, God will show that person the truth and give them an opportunity to choose. (Flame suit being put on now.)