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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Originally posted by JohnR View Post
    Should the church be made up of those like the Philippian jailer, or only ones as deep and trained up as Paul? I believe it should (and does) run the spectrum.

    Another way to look at it is, should the "construction" trade consist of only those who pound nails and pour "mud", or is there a need for architects, engineers, and interior designers?

    Christianity is about simple faith, but I don't think I would classify Paul and many others as simple thinkers/expositors.


    Edited to add: Time for me to get ready to pass on knowledge to young minds which need to pass tests all the while modeling Christ and having a ready answer, in season and out.
    I would heartily agree it runs the spectrum, and I think those who love to think and postulate and study the nuances should never be silenced. But It has been my experience that today the balance can be far to the educated side, but it also may be the part of the country I am in. The nuance is when the knowledge puffs up and is used, rather than given freely as a gift. The simple pick up on which one it is real quick.

    In some ways to reason can greatly interfere with faith. A cool word study on one of the words for reason (dialogizontai 1260). Like in mark 2:8, it is many times in direct contrast to Jesus receiving or perceiving. Education when led by the Spirit is a powerful thing. Like with Jesus’ example in mark 2:8, I take Paul or Peter or any of the others as having not written from their mind, but as their minds were lead, otherwise I would not consider it Scripture.

    I would not be against memorization, but I crave the “brought to my remembrance” by him before my own recollection.

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Boston, my ref. to Mr. Beck and his mormonism was meant to simply be an example of how some could be taken in by false doctrine if not well trained in Biblical doctrine. Sorry ... not trying to be confusing. It just comes natural. My focus was meant to still just be on those truly born again; the true church.

    Originally posted by JohnR
    Other than that, we need to "bear" with one another in community rather than disunity.
    True. Which is what makes me sad about there being so many splits in the church. It almost seems that as soon as someone "sees something new" (even if it's not and they just think it is) they have to run off and start a new "church."

    Originally posted by Boston
    Within the body of Christ we are to “produce” the savor of Christ to one another, instead it seems we demand doctorates of theology.
    I hope I'm not coming across as "demanding doctorates of theology?" All I am trying to say is that we have the Word of God and it defines the church and what is right to believe ... or not, and that believers need to adhere to the Word of God. I agree with JohnR that we are sometimes going to see something in the Word differently than another believer does, and that's fine. It's going to happen. But it shouldn't be a cause for division in the body. Now I have to admit, I'm not sure how some differences can be handled when it is something obvious such as someone that does not believe that the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is not for today and someone else in the same body of believers does, and it happens ... but even that, imho, should be civilly discussed afterward. If they cannot agree after discussing, the the one that believes it's not for today, must "bear" with the one that believes it's for today and vice-versa. But to leave (whichever one does) and start a new church, imho, shouldn't be.

    John, Boston will have to speak for himself of course, but I think that he, and I know I do, agree with your analogy of the construction trade. Perhaps you question was because of: Boston - "It’s a concern of mine having worked in the past with those who are not all that educated, and the loss of a Christianity that was once about simple faith." ?

    I am glad that the well initiated, when I first got saved, did not shun me because I didn't quite believe everything corrrectly. I know you guys are likely glad of that for yourselves also. Instead, as we should do too, they took us by the hand, so to speak, and patiently showed us in the Word, what was correct. At least, as best they knew at the time. Patience and gentleness are parts of the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22ish)

    Issachar

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Originally posted by Boston View Post
    As far as the first post goes I am thinking a bit on how education has changed and how that effects today’s church. We now have 100% of a church that has grown up taking and passing tests in school, rather than being “discipled” or apprenticed in a craft. Arguments and a lack of unity comes much easier in an academic environment, not so much when you have to produce an actual “work” that has to pass “muster”

    Within the body of Christ we are to “produce” the savor of Christ to one another, instead it seems we demand doctorates of theology. It’s a concern of mine having worked in the past with those who are not all that educated, and the loss of a Christianity that was once about simple faith.
    Should the church be made up of those like the Philippian jailer, or only ones as deep and trained up as Paul? I believe it should (and does) run the spectrum.

    Another way to look at it is, should the "construction" trade consist of only those who pound nails and pour "mud", or is there a need for architects, engineers, and interior designers?

    Christianity is about simple faith, but I don't think I would classify Paul and many others as simple thinkers/expositors.


    Edited to add: Time for me to get ready to pass on knowledge to young minds which need to pass tests all the while modeling Christ and having a ready answer, in season and out.
    Last edited by JohnR; 10-20-2010, 04:50 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    As far as the first post goes I am thinking a bit on how education has changed and how that effects today’s church. We now have 100% of a church that has grown up taking and passing tests in school, rather than being “discipled” or apprenticed in a craft. Arguments and a lack of unity comes much easier in an academic environment, not so much when you have to produce an actual “work” that has to pass “muster”

    Within the body of Christ we are to “produce” the savor of Christ to one another, instead it seems we demand doctorates of theology. It’s a concern of mine having worked in the past with those who are not all that educated, and the loss of a Christianity that was once about simple faith.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Ok I’m confused, you started out eliminating all extraneous possibilities and said you were only speaking of the body of Christ,

    Something that causes me some consternation is the seeming disarray of the body of Christ. Now granted, much of what/whom counts itself as members of the body of Christ, are not and can be discounted as causing consternation, but there is, it seems, within the true body of Christ, much division. Some of whom can be discounted are those that believe a homosexual lifestyle is not sin and actively lives it or even just endorses it, those that claim their cult as being Christian but they deny the divinity of Christ or His resurrection or His birth of a virgin, etc.

    But among those that truly are Christian; that is, those that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, there is so much disagreement and controversy as to almost seem hopeless that there could ever be the unity the Bible speaks of.
    Now we are at Mormons … how did we get there?

    But I'm certain you would agree that the body of Christ's members must be in agreement on some things?

    Doctrine may be:
    Jesus is the only begotten Son of God
    Born of a virgin; Mary
    Died on the cross in our stead
    Was raised from death the third day
    Ascended to the right hand of the Father
    Sent the Holy Spirit as Comforter, to indwell those that believe
    He will return, bodily

    It is quite worthwhile to know that doctrine one adheres to if we are going to be in fellowship with them:
    Which category are we in?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Originally posted by Issachar View Post
    ...
    I believe we are already entered into a time where in the future, looking back at 2010, we will see why we got to where we will be .. it will be very different for us, especially as believers. This is why I sense an urgency in my spirit to raise my voice for believers to be more in community. Always, we really do need each other, but the fact of that isn't always apparent in a prosperous society. In fact, it's usually not at all apparent. So if we can think ... start to think, more along those lines now, in the relatively near future when we are hit up side the head with the reality of needing each other, we'll have a better clue as to how to conduct ourselves at that time. But they will be treacherous times. One way to be certain that the community of believers isn't being infiltrated by a wolf/wolves in sheeps clothing, is to know doctrine, the doctrine of Christ, which comes from the Word. Because a wolf, no matter the disguise, cannot have true doctrine and will be, by the Holy Spirit, revealed.

    Issachar ... still meandering just a bit .. just thinking aloud
    I don't know (or remember as I didn't reread all the posts) if this has already been brought up regarding community, but I look to what Paul said in Eph 4:2 about "putting up" (bearing) with one another in love. Here is a bit on the word translated "bearing" -
    † ἀνέχω, ἀνεκτός, ἀνοχή
    In secular Gk. ἀνέχω is found with various shades of meaning in both act. and mid., trans. and intrans.1 In the NT and related literature it occurs only in the mid., and in conjunction with ἀνεκτός and ἀνοχή it has two main senses.

    1. “To receive, take up, bear and endure.” With a material object the reference is especially to receiving, e.g. the hearing of a word (Hb. 13:22; 2 Tm. 4:3; 2 C. 11:4), or more generally the receiving of τὰ σάββατα from God (Barn., 2, 5; 15, 8 == LXX Is. 1:13), of smell from men (2 Macc. 9:12), of punishment (Dg., 2, 9), of πάθη (4 Macc. 1:35 SR), of θλίψεις (2 Th. 1:4), of πάντα (1 Cl., 49, 5). More important are the cases when there is a personal object. Here the meaning ranges from accepting someone (2 C. 11:1, 19; Herm. m., 4, 4, 1) to the true bearing and taking to oneself of one’s neighbour in the sense of tolerating his life. ἀνέχεσθαι is used of Jesus in this sense at Mk. 9:19 and par. in relation to the γενεὰ ἄπιστος. His being with men involves His putting up with them. In Eph. 4:2 and Col. 3:13 ἀνέχεσθαι ἀλλήλων ἐν ἀγάπῃ is an admonition to the community to apply to one another the love or the election which is theirs in Christ. Without object ἀνέχεσθαι has the absolute sense of “endure,” as in LXX Job 6:11 and 1 C. 4:12. This endurance (in persecution) does not have the negative significance of a heroism which retreats into itself but implies a constant acceptance of the claims of others, as shown by the parallel εὐλογεῖν and παρακαλεῖν in the latter reference. In the absolute sense we also have the verbal adj. ἀνεκτός in Lk. 10:12 and par. and 10:14 and par.—a construction not found in the LXX. On the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon and Sodom and Gomorrah than for the cities of Israel which do not believe in Jesus.

    2. “To restrain oneself.” God restrains Himself either to man’s destruction (LXX Is. 64:12) or out of mercy (LXX Is. 42:14; Dg., 9, 1 f., par. ἐμακροθύμησεν). That this sense easily merges into the former may be seen from LXX Is. 63:15, where it is said that God forbears with us. The substantive ἀνοχή in R. 2:4 and 3:26 may be mentioned in this connection. ἀνοχή, which is put between the χρηστότης and the μακροθυμία of God in R. 2:4, is God’s restraint in the outworking of His wrath, which with Christ has ceased to be an essential determination of the world.


    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley and Gerhard Friedrich, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-).
    Whether any have "heart-burn" or other "issues" regarding Kittel (I know some do) makes no matter to me, I think this stands on it's own.

    "We" may have differences of "opinion" on what "we" believe the Spirit is telling us, but if it is pulled out of context, is mentioned only once (ie, baptism of/for the dead) without further explanation, etc, it probably shouldn't be considered "right" doctrine. Other than that, we need to "bear" with one another in community rather than disunity.

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    I should add these verses to the matter of doctrine:

    2 John 1:
    9
    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    v.11 is where I think that "prominent" Christians, in the very public view, should not be referring to a mormon as "brother."

    Issachar

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Always a good point Boston that indeed, the Word of God is not just a "data book" from which we can get data and spew it out wherever we go. It is the Holy Spirit that gives it meaning and it is He that will lead us into all truth. And yes, truth is revealed in the walking.

    Also, I am in agreement that unity is not necessarily the result of being in agreement. But I'm certain you would agree that the body of Christ's members must be in agreement on some things?

    Doctrine may be:
    Jesus is the only begotten Son of God
    Born of a virgin; Mary
    Died on the cross in our stead
    Was raised from death the third day
    Ascended to the right hand of the Father
    Sent the Holy Spirit as Comforter, to indwell those that believe
    He will return, bodily

    It is quite worthwhile to know that doctrine one adheres to if we are going to be in fellowship with them:

    Romans 16:
    17
    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    The "doctrine we have learned" comes from the Word of God. Those that hold to another doctrine must be known and avoided. I would, because it is current and popular right now, point out Glenn Becks "doctrine." Just this morning, at approximately 10:30, he said, "There are Christians who think I am not a Christian because I am a mormon. Let me make this clear .. I believe in jesus and his atonement .. salvation .. etc." If I hadn't known better, I would have thought I just hit on a Christian radio station. Because many are not being taught sound doctrine in their local bodies of believers, they can (and I know some are) fully persuaded that he is a Christian but in fact, he is filled with the doctrine of demons.

    Ephesians 4:
    14
    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    1 Timothy 1:
    3
    As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, ...

    1 Timothy 4:
    13
    Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

    If you have a computer bible (if one had internet, they have a computer bible) you will find 51 uses of the word "doctrine" in the Old and New Testaments. Paul is making it ... well, actually, the Holy Spirit inspiring Paul, is making it very clear that we are to adhere to sound doctrine and not fellowship with those that hold to false doctrine; that is, other than what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

    I understand the "info wars" thing and agree with you. I've seen Christians verbally duke it out using the Bible. Dumb.

    I believe we are already entered into a time where in the future, looking back at 2010, we will see why we got to where we will be .. it will be very different for us, especially as believers. This is why I sense an urgency in my spirit to raise my voice for believers to be more in community. Always, we really do need each other, but the fact of that isn't always apparent in a prosperous society. In fact, it's usually not at all apparent. So if we can think ... start to think, more along those lines now, in the relatively near future when we are hit up side the head with the reality of needing each other, we'll have a better clue as to how to conduct ourselves at that time. But they will be treacherous times. One way to be certain that the community of believers isn't being infiltrated by a wolf/wolves in sheeps clothing, is to know doctrine, the doctrine of Christ, which comes from the Word. Because a wolf, no matter the disguise, cannot have true doctrine and will be, by the Holy Spirit, revealed.

    Issachar ... still meandering just a bit .. just thinking aloud

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    The older I get, and the more I have had to repent from what I was “sure” was the written word, the less I am upset about finding myself “wrong”, and the less I have a demand of others being “right”.

    Jesus is the bread from heaven, manna. When they collected the manna they were only soposto get what they needed for that day (2 days for Sabbath). It was to meet the need in the now. If they gathered too much, it went bad, it spoiled, it turned rotten. Sometimes I think that’s what happens when we collect knowledge for reasons other than doing, it goes bad and puffs up. Especially if we think that a proper and right confession has something to do with the righteousness Jesus freely gave from his death and resurrection.

    In these modern times of “info wars,” I fear what we call doctrine today is “an official statement of a groups lip service, esp. toward God”
    What those in the past called a confession of faith. But doctrine was something that was practiced. You can easily speak things, and teach facts, but truth walks. People argue over what is correct on paper, but when the fruit of the spirit walks in the room, everyone notices and become quiet, there is nothing (no law) against them.

    It’s not I think that rightly dividing the written word is not important, nor that accurate knowledge is something to abandon, or not to be sought after. Far from it. But I do think that the only way to rightly divide the word is in love, and that takes its practice. It’s like hitting the right note in signing, and not just writing the notes down correctly on paper. It takes both the written word and the Spirit to get truth, both Moses and Elisha. A lot of trouble I think happens when one reaches just for one and not the other.

    I also don’t see a need to agree with someone to have unity. What’s the point of having a brother if ya can’t get in a good tussle every once and a while?

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Something that causes me some consternation is the seeming disarray of the body of Christ. Now granted, much of what/whom counts itself as members of the body of Christ, are not and can be discounted as causing consternation, but there is, it seems, within the true body of Christ, much division. Some of whom can be discounted are those that believe a homosexual lifestyle is not sin and actively lives it or even just endorses it, those that claim their cult as being Christian but they deny the divinity of Christ or His resurrection or His birth of a virgin, etc.

    But among those that truly are Christian; that is, those that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, there is so much disagreement and controversy as to almost seem hopeless that there could ever be the unity the Bible speaks of.

    I can accept that there won't be a time this side of heaven that we all agree on every point, all the time. But oh dear ... the church at large seems to be far away from even that. God set in place in the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ... in part, for us to come in the unity of the faith .. the perfecting of the saints ...

    Ephesians 4:
    11
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    There is so much controversy over what is in the Word. So much that some boards, such as this one, cannot even allow certain topics to be discussed. Some things controversial, that are allowed ... but I'm not ... I'm hoping that, this doesn't go into a discussion on the specifics as I am simply trying to understand the general theme of unity, fellowship, etc. But there are issues such as the gifts of the Spirit: for today or not, what constitutes being saved, is there a rapture or not and if so, when .. not the date setting when, but the pre-mid-post, etc., where do works, if at all, fit into being Christian, what is the Sabbath, what about tithing, on and on ... we could all fill in even more issues.

    But there it is in Ephesians quoted above .. who God placed in the body to help us towards the perfecting of the saints ... I think some translations say "equipping?" ... and yet there is haggling .. even division .. over whether or not one should celebrate Christmas.

    My attitude ... well, developing attitude is that as I study the Word of God, whenever I encounter something that disagrees with me, one of us has to be wrong. Since it is never the Word that is wrong, I change ... or seek to. In other words, I want to dump preconceived ideas. By God's grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, I hope that the dumping is in progress.

    Issachar, meandering again ...

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    I just got to the end of the article and the one that was in trouble in Ohio, is remade and doing fine.

    Issachar

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    I did find this Washington Post article from 5 years ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102200046.html

    The part of the article that starts with, "Critics disagree" claims things that are the same as "legitimate insurance companies." They talk about 3 of these "church plans" and it sounds like one in Ohio, the smallest of the 3, I believe, did some no-no's but I don't know the whole story from this article. I don't really care about that anyway ... national is too big. As PlumBob said, and I wholeheartedly agree, keep it local; local where there is accountability. Where the insured can see where/how the directors live and know them.

    Getting more towards the real thrust of this thread, Christian Community, I do beleive the day is fast approaching where it would behoove Christians to learn what community is, and do it ... biblically.

    Issachar

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  • Issachar
    replied
    Re: Christian Community

    Originally posted by Issachar
    When I watched it, it wasn't about exactly what I have in mind ..
    Originally posted by PlumBob
    I tend to think that any of these large plans would eventually be shot down by the powers that be. Health care will be a very local, very personal, very close to the vest kind of thing.


    On the Medi-Share thing .. I'll have to see if I can find something on it, but I think I remember hearing the same sort of thing about a similar thing, but I didn't think it was Medi-Share. We'll see ...

    Issachar

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    There was an article in my local paper on Sunday about a Christian Medi Share program. I had heard of it before but have no personal experience.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Christian Community

    I posted this some time ago on my blog....its a list of verses that give a good idea of what Biblical Community should look like.

    http://livingfree77.wordpress.com/20...ian-community/

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