Christian Community

[Issachar]

Re: Christian Community

Boston, my ref. to Mr. Beck and his mormonism was meant to simply be an example of how some could be taken in by false doctrine if not well trained in Biblical doctrine. Sorry ... not trying to be confusing. It just comes natural. My focus was meant to still just be on those truly born again; the true church.

Other than that, we need to "bear" with one another in community rather than disunity.

True. Which is what makes me sad about there being so many splits in the church. It almost seems that as soon as someone "sees something new" (even if it's not and they just think it is) they have to run off and start a new "church."

Within the body of Christ we are to “produce” the savor of Christ to one another, instead it seems we demand doctorates of theology.

I hope I'm not coming across as "demanding doctorates of theology?" All I am trying to say is that we have the Word of God and it defines the church and what is right to believe ... or not, and that believers need to adhere to the Word of God. I agree with JohnR that we are sometimes going to see something in the Word differently than another believer does, and that's fine. It's going to happen. But it shouldn't be a cause for division in the body. Now I have to admit, I'm not sure how some differences can be handled when it is something obvious such as someone that does not believe that the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is not for today and someone else in the same body of believers does, and it happens ... but even that, imho, should be civilly discussed afterward. If they cannot agree after discussing, the the one that believes it's not for today, must "bear" with the one that believes it's for today and vice-versa. But to leave (whichever one does) and start a new church, imho, shouldn't be.

John, Boston will have to speak for himself of course, but I think that he, and I know I do, agree with your analogy of the construction trade. Perhaps you question was because of: Boston - "It’s a concern of mine having worked in the past with those who are not all that educated, and the loss of a Christianity that was once about simple faith." ?

I am glad that the well initiated, when I first got saved, did not shun me because I didn't quite believe everything corrrectly. I know you guys are likely glad of that for yourselves also. Instead, as we should do too, they took us by the hand, so to speak, and patiently showed us in the Word, what was correct. At least, as best they knew at the time. Patience and gentleness are parts of the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22ish)

Issachar

[Boston]

Re: Christian Community

Should the church be made up of those like the Philippian jailer, or only ones as deep and trained up as Paul? I believe it should (and does) run the spectrum.

Another way to look at it is, should the "construction" trade consist of only those who pound nails and pour "mud", or is there a need for architects, engineers, and interior designers?

Christianity is about simple faith, but I don't think I would classify Paul and many others as simple thinkers/expositors.


Edited to add: Time for me to get ready to pass on knowledge to young minds which need to pass tests all the while modeling Christ and having a ready answer, in season and out.

I would heartily agree it runs the spectrum, and I think those who love to think and postulate and study the nuances should never be silenced. But It has been my experience that today the balance can be far to the educated side, but it also may be the part of the country I am in. The nuance is when the knowledge puffs up and is used, rather than given freely as a gift. The simple pick up on which one it is real quick.

In some ways to reason can greatly interfere with faith. A cool word study on one of the words for reason (dialogizontai 1260). Like in mark 2:8, it is many times in direct contrast to Jesus receiving or perceiving. Education when led by the Spirit is a powerful thing. Like with Jesus’ example in mark 2:8, I take Paul or Peter or any of the others as having not written from their mind, but as their minds were lead, otherwise I would not consider it Scripture.

I would not be against memorization, but I crave the “brought to my remembrance” by him before my own recollection.

[Boston]

Re: Christian Community

Boston, my ref. to Mr. Beck and his mormonism was meant to simply be an example of how some could be taken in by false doctrine if not well trained in Biblical doctrine. Sorry ... not trying to be confusing. It just comes natural. My focus was meant to still just be on those truly born again; the true church.

I am easily confused especially when I am at work and moving a bunch of boxes, then posting, then back to boxes ….

I hope I'm not coming across as "demanding doctorates of theology?"


John, Boston will have to speak for himself of course, but I think that he, and I know I do, agree with your analogy of the construction trade. Perhaps you question was because of: Boston - "It’s a concern of mine having worked in the past with those who are not all that educated, and the loss of a Christianity that was once about simple faith." ?

I hope I’m not coming across as speaking “to” or “at” anyone, It’s a subject I get passionate about so I hope my wording is not Coming across as “challenging.” I’m excited about the discussion, if I seem any other way I apologize ( I’m very Irish … if that Helps … )

[Guest]

Re: Christian Community

I would heartily agree it runs the spectrum, and I think those who love to think and postulate and study the nuances should never be silenced. But It has been my experience that today the balance can be far to the educated side, but it also may be the part of the country I am in. The nuance is when the knowledge puffs up and is used, rather than given freely as a gift. The simple pick up on which one it is real quick.

In some ways to reason can greatly interfere with faith. A cool word study on one of the words for reason (dialogizontai 1260). Like in mark 2:8, it is many times in direct contrast to Jesus receiving or perceiving. Education when led by the Spirit is a powerful thing. Like with Jesus’ example in mark 2:8, I take Paul or Peter or any of the others as having not written from their mind, but as their minds were lead, otherwise I would not consider it Scripture.

I would not be against memorization, but I crave the “brought to my remembrance” by him before my own recollection.

Boston, this pricked my interest, you mentioning memorization vs remembrance, which drove me to what Christ was meaning in John 14:26 when He said the Spirit would "... bring to remembrance all things ..." This is not a case of memorization but one of

to cause to recall and to think about again—‘to remind, to cause to remember, to cause to think about again.’

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible societies, 1996).

We are enjoined to "meditate" or "chew on" the Word of God which is well beyond memorization, but, to bring it back to your "simple faith" and Issachar's example of the "well initiated" not shunning him early in his walk, is "limited" by individual (and only the Spirit knows) capacity to learn. A sponge can only soak up as much as it's designer has determined it should.

[Guest]

Re: Christian Community

An interesting discussion, for sure. And turning out to be quite different than I thought it would.

Somewhat obliquely related to the last several posts, but prompted by something Issachar said way back - and of course I'm not going to try to find it - but just this afternoon, Tasarwen and I were reading in a local book store, and eavesdropping on a conversation between 2 young men siting next to us. The conversation was multi-topiced. But among them was the concern of ". . . how do we minister to large groups, and still make sure that the single (not marital status) person or individual family feels cared for?" Coming from the mouths of 24 year olds, I found it rather remarkable.

The most exasperating statement for me was when one asked the other when he prepared ". . . your message for Sunday. . ." whatever that meant. But the response was "Well, I do it when I have time on Saturday."

Point being - they are concerned about how to minister to people - but they aren't in the Word? Not in the Closet? Putting it off 'till Saturday?

'Nuff said. But back to where I had originally thought this thread might go - I rather doubt that I'll be relying on these two obviously well-meaning young fellows, if I ever need to access the "Christian Community" around here. Downright scary, thinking that - well, as I said, 'nuff said.

[Boston]

Re: Christian Community

Well the point I am round about making, is when within the body of believers there is disunity and contention I would gather from the beginning chapters of 1Corinthians that the issue is pride. The term puffed up is used quite a bit, and the other words that are used are wisdom, and knowledge. In the context of the chapters are the great points of how we do not have full knowledge, but God does.

The point is often made that the knowledge being talked about is not biblical but worldly. But I have a hard time thinking that folks were all lining themselves up behind this guy or that guy because of their positions on the cost of tea. It would have been splits on spiritual matters. Particularly methods of baptism, which of course, we would never argue about today.

I gather that knowledge, like the Law, is just and good, but when wielded by the sin nature of man, deadly, even biblical knowledge. Or in other words pride feeds off an over abundance of knowledge. These words have always rung loud in my ears.

John 7:47
47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

The bottom line being “Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.” And with that I think the church as a whole would be much better off, and less off the word, if the drive was to manifest the fruit of the spirit rather than the accumulation and dispersal of information. I’m not saying one should replace the other, but if the edification of each other came first we might just end up with believers who could handle the information in a spiritually mature manner.

A question to ask is: in practice, are the two great commandments being adhered to in our Christian circles: know God and know your neighbor?

[Guest]

Re: Christian Community

Well the point I am round about making, is when within the body of believers there is disunity and contention I would gather from the beginning chapters of 1Corinthians that the issue is pride. The term puffed up is used quite a bit, and the other words that are used are wisdom, and knowledge. In the context of the chapters are the great points of how we do not have full knowledge, but God does.

The point is often made that the knowledge being talked about is not biblical but worldly. But I have a hard time thinking that folks were all lining themselves up behind this guy or that guy because of their positions on the cost of tea. It would have been splits on spiritual matters. Particularly methods of baptism, which of course, we would never argue about today.

I gather that knowledge, like the Law, is just and good, but when wielded by the sin nature of man, deadly, even biblical knowledge. Or in other words pride feeds off an over abundance of knowledge. These words have always rung loud in my ears.

John 7:47
47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

The bottom line being “Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.” And with that I think the church as a whole would be much better off, and less off the word, if the drive was to manifest the fruit of the spirit rather than the accumulation and dispersal of information. I’m not saying one should replace the other, but if the edification of each other came first we might just end up with believers who could handle the information in a spiritually mature manner.

A question to ask is: in practice, are the two great commandments being adhered to in our Christian circles: know God and know your neighbor?

Boston, you might be interested in doing a word study on "διάνοια", the word translated "mind" in Matt 22:37. Yes, we are called to love God, but HOW are we to love Him?

[Andy]

Re: Christian Community

Issachar, I would add to your list of required beliefs to be saved:
Jesus is the Second Person of a Tri-Une God. One God, eternally existing in Three Persons.

Jesus said we MUST believe He is Who He said He is believe on the One that sent Him. I believe He made His deity quite clear in both word and deed...especially when you read Isaiah chapters 40 - 48...then compare to the New Testament.

What say ye?

[Issachar]

Re: Christian Community

Yes, we are called to love God, but HOW are we to love Him?

You've asked a very important question here John. Not only important to this discussion, but important to the entire body of Christ.

Jesus spoke MUCH, as did the apostles, about the association between loving God and obeying God.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's interesting to note that those "that work iniquity" in v.23, were not saying, "have we not committed adultery in your name?" or "have we not murdered in your name?", etc. But no, they have cast out devils ... seems good to me and they've done many wonderful works, in His name ... also seems good to me. But in Matthew 25:31-46, where the sheep are separated from the goats and set at the right hand of God and the goats at His left hand, we see the accepted ones are those that fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, clothed that naked, visitied those that are in prison and those that are sick. I would think that would make one consider at least twice before they hang a 40 foot long gold banner with their name on it; i.e. XXXX HEALING MINISTRY; XXXX MUSIC MINISTRY; XXXX GET RICH EASY MINISTRY, etc. The latter, that which is in the Matthew 25 passage, requires a laying down of one's self; i.e. taking up the cross. One does not do that outside of loving God. So we are saved only by God's grace, in that salvation we can't help but love God and that love is revealed through our obedience which is revealed in what we do.

John 15:
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mark 12:
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. ....

I am running a bit late .. sorry so thrown together in this post. Also see all of 1 John, especially ch.4-5.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: Christian Community

Issachar, I would add to your list of required beliefs to be saved:
Jesus is the Second Person of a Tri-Une God. One God, eternally existing in Three Persons.

Jesus said we MUST believe He is Who He said He is believe on the One that sent Him. I believe He made His deity quite clear in both word and deed...especially when you read Isaiah chapters 40 - 48...then compare to the New Testament.

What say ye?

Completely AGREE. I know there is more ... I was just throwing out a quick, off the top of my head, "example" list. Thanks.

Issachar, has to run ...

[Boston]

Re: Christian Community

Boston, you might be interested in doing a word study on "διάνοια", the word translated "mind" in Matt 22:37. Yes, we are called to love God, but HOW are we to love Him?

I used to do word study’s before the computer programs. Its kinda cheating now don’t ya think – the computers that is? Press a button and boom, ya got your list and with another button ya got your def. back then it was: Young’s concordance, Bible, note pad, lexicon and any other book spread out all over the bed and hand copy each verse down tracing some Greek or Hebrew word through the scriptures…

Well as you can see, I am at a different end of the spectrum, now. I had to repent from some of that stuff, it got me in trouble. What I am writing is about that walk of repentance, and what I learned from it. If I sound extreme at times its because we never yell so loud about something as when it’s our own weakness, or something that has bit ya hard. I am also not pointing a finger as I know all too well the 3 others pointing back at myself.

I actually referenced that verse in my first post when I said

“But I do think that the only way to rightly divide the word is in love, and that takes its practice.”

That’s my rephrase of

“40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Again am not saying

“I think that rightly dividing the written word is not important, nor that accurate knowledge is something to abandon, or not to be sought after.”

I am saying that knowledge can be exalted above the soul and heart and strength, especially for the immature in Christ. It can become a brassen serpent, or the hanging of tassels, and that it’s that which can destroy Christian community (1coriths.)

The idea is simple, that whether someone was born again yesterday and knows very little or has been around and studying the scriptures for 40 years, whether a person is a scribe or can’t read, has the exact same righteousness and value, do to Christ’s work. The same potential exists for the homeless marine who suffered head trauma and now battles schizophrenia to benefit the kingdom (his name was Steve, and loved to tell people about his friend Jesus) as the aged scholar who has the permission to see some of the oldest manuscripts in Germany (his name was Robert).

I learned as much if not more, from Big Steve as I did from Robert, but I don’t think in many Christian circles Big Steve would be seen as very valuable or capable, where as Robert would. But I think Jesus see’s them both the same, and I have a hard time seeing Steve causing the splits in a church as Robert could.

(I will go through that word as I don’t remember it all that well)

[Issachar]

Re: Christian Community

I learned as much if not more, from Big Steve as I did from Robert, but I don’t think in many Christian circles Big Steve would be seen as very valuable or capable, where as Robert would. But I think Jesus see’s them both the same, and I have a hard time seeing Steve causing the splits in a church as Robert could.

Very good. I think we can all (I hope) agree on this. I have a couple "steves" in my life. They have no concern about "all that doctrine stuff." But they sure can brighten up a day. But too, they generally cannot lead a church though they can play a vital role in the church. Jesus uses everyone that is a member of His body to supply a need to the rest of the body.

Imho, those with a lot of "knowledge" provide an important supply too; as I'm already certain you agree. The problem isn't knowledge and understanding, the problem is pride. It is pride that always divides. Pride is merely the "self" life instead of Christ's life. Pride is intrinsically selfish. That is what divides. Now I do think that if one has "knowledge" it may be easier to be prideful ... actually ... I want to restate that ... when something sinful is manifested in our lives, it is not something outside ourselves that made it happen. It is already there and the circumstance, whatever it may be, brought it to the surface.

Lucifer's fall was due to pride and it is pride that he infected the human race with .. "hath God said?"

Genesis 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

In v.4 we see him tell the woman that God is a liar. He is putting himself, supposedly, in the position of knowing more than God. Then in v.5 ... "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." I believe that desire to be "a god" became a part of the sinful nature that mankind acquired in this scenerio. Now the world is filled with all these people trying to be "a god"; that is, the entity that is in control of their sphere of influence. The problem is, part of what is in their sphere of influence are other humans that are also trying to do the same thing. Clash, clash, clash .. no new thing under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9). Also, this "god" is so frail and it knows it. That is where insecurity comes from; that sort that causes people to be ogres lest their frailty be discovered. Much, if not all, of the "world" runs on and is driven by, fear.

Anyway .. as I was saying, the knowledge, etc. is not the problem (I know you know that ... just thinking out loud here) but pride. Dying to self, which only a Christian can do, is all about taking up the cross.

Issachar .. thinking that being in community takes all kinds ...

[Guest]

Re: Christian Community

...
Issachar .. thinking that being in community takes all kinds ...

Which is why Paul compared the "community" to a body ... it takes more than scabby, big toes like me to make up the (Bride) (Body of Christ) (Church).

[Guest]

Re: Christian Community

I used to do word study’s before the computer programs. Its kinda cheating now don’t ya think – the computers that is? Press a button and boom, ya got your list and with another button ya got your def. back then it was: Young’s concordance, Bible, note pad, lexicon and any other book spread out all over the bed and hand copy each verse down tracing some Greek or Hebrew word through the scriptures…

Well as you can see, I am at a different end of the spectrum, now. I had to repent from some of that stuff, it got me in trouble. What I am writing is about that walk of repentance, and what I learned from it. If I sound extreme at times its because we never yell so loud about something as when it’s our own weakness, or something that has bit ya hard. I am also not pointing a finger as I know all too well the 3 others pointing back at myself.

I actually referenced that verse in my first post when I said That’s my rephrase of
...

Cheating? No, but it can (and does) allow one to reply in haste, especially at the end of a long day and grades are due the next

I need to apologize as I miss read what you posted when you mentioned the two greatest commandments and used "know" rather than "love" (missed the colon separators), it sort of blended together with a few of the previous posts regarding knowledge in a negative way

Knowledge can be a source of pride and computers can feed that like a "feeder stream", but they (computers) don't form the "headwaters" of pride, the heart does. Those of us in the IT business have to watch ourselves as we (I) can fall in to that trap. My "love affair" with computers began back in 1967 at a technology expo in San Francisco when I saw my first computer, a Dec PDP (either a 5 or 8, can't remember which), it didn't fill a room, but it would certainly keep it toasty.

(Now this is where computers are both a boon and a bane) I had to go search my "memory" (google is your friend) and it was the WESCON 67 (Aug 1967) where I saw that computer. It was controlling a holographic display (one you had to look into a small view port to see). Computers have come a long way, but holographs are still out of reach, although "Avatar" in 3D was great).

Well enough of my blathering, time to get my 10 year old going and us off to school. For international travelers, computers are much easier and lighter to tote around than an 900 volume library and this 15", MacBook Pro is a great tool.

[Andy]

Re: Christian Community

Well enough of my blathering, time to get my 10 year old going and us off to school.

GOODNESS!! TEN year old?!? I remember when she was born!

Good grief does time fly!