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Re: Am I unreasonable? was this a propper reply?
Greetings Nelson from outside Osan AFB, long time no "see". Good post brother and very well put.
Originally posted by Nelson
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Good evening all...out of lurkerdom to address this issue.
Lewis...I agree with Issachar here...but I am perhaps coming at it from a different direction.
Some of you know my background...but for the newer ones here...I will re-tell it briefly as to segway into Issachar's post.
I went to seminary precisely to learn WHY the church in North America was "broken." I got my Th.D. in Ante-Nicene Christianity....focusing on polemics of the early church (their dealing both WITHIN and WITHOUT). Now....I work my ministry out of a megachurch in Houston. I am a certified church consultant working with broken churches. One church I work with has a 2400 seat auditorium...and used to fill it. Now they avg 170 on a given Sunday.
So...yes...there are MAJOR problems with the western church. It is broken.
Lewis: The first thing you MUST remember (and all need to remember...) when speaking of small groups is: That is the way the New Testament Church was organized. One of the toughest parts of my "job" is getting churches to understand that their "traditions" are, by and large, not based on scripture. Sunday School-Not Scriptural. Sunday night church-Not scriptural. Pews-Not scriptural.
Now....they aren't UN-Scriptural...they just aren't commanded by the Bible. So my first order of business is to get people to understand that your love of a class...room...program...while noble...may not be in the best interest of a church. It may be, in fact, selfish on your part (not yours...you know what I am saying). So...first and foremost...BE CAREFUL about what you elevate to the level of canon or importance. The New Testament lays out the specific FUNCTIONS of a Church. It is left up to the local church to decide the FORM. When the FORM no longer matches society...the local church MUST change its FORM (while preserving its FUNCTION)...or die.
If a group of people wants to hold on to its FORM...even though the demographics of their community have changed...that is their right. BUT...they cease to be a New Testament church...they cease to be a Great Commission church...and they will eventually need hospice. It is only a matter of time. We buried a church last month because the final 7 members could no longer keep the facility...even though they were at one time a proud....large congregation. They wanted their FUNCTION...and pride. They died a sad...disgraceful death in the eyes of the Kingdom.
They (the hospice groups) just can't change to society. I get tickled when older Baptists (I am one (not older...Baptist)...so I can talk) bemoan the demise of Sunday night church and speak as if its a sign of the end times...even though they are ignorant of the fact that Sunday night church just started after the light bulb was invented. Jesus didn't set it up...and it isn't heresy of you don't go. It's Pharisaical to place a demand on someone (through that subtle pressure that we are known for) for something that is relatively new in the church...something that the Church Fathers new nothing about.
It's nice to go to a place where you feel comfortable. But...remember...many of the things we "do" in the modern, western church would be absolutely foreign to Paul, Peter and John.
So...yes the pastor should have handled it with more grace...but executive pastor's aren't really known for that.
And last but not least...for ALL of you: Just remember...if we were having church like they REALLY had it in the New Testament...you wouldn't be going to some fancy building with Sunday School classes (for your "small group") that sit empty 166 hours out of the week (but you pay for them all 168)....and sitting in a plush pew. You would be meeting with a small group in a house church...and probably meeting at a public place for a cooperate celebration of worship. You wouldn't be praying for an average of 3 minutes during your worship service (which is the #1 reason the church is broken)...you would be praying for hours.
So...just a word of advice for all...when you want to dog on the seeker movement...purpose driven movement...etc...well...let me come to your church for a Sunday...and I will bring my ruler (the New Testament). We all are missing the standard in some way or another.
Lewis...I agree with Issachar here...but I am perhaps coming at it from a different direction.
Some of you know my background...but for the newer ones here...I will re-tell it briefly as to segway into Issachar's post.
I went to seminary precisely to learn WHY the church in North America was "broken." I got my Th.D. in Ante-Nicene Christianity....focusing on polemics of the early church (their dealing both WITHIN and WITHOUT). Now....I work my ministry out of a megachurch in Houston. I am a certified church consultant working with broken churches. One church I work with has a 2400 seat auditorium...and used to fill it. Now they avg 170 on a given Sunday.
So...yes...there are MAJOR problems with the western church. It is broken.
Lewis: The first thing you MUST remember (and all need to remember...) when speaking of small groups is: That is the way the New Testament Church was organized. One of the toughest parts of my "job" is getting churches to understand that their "traditions" are, by and large, not based on scripture. Sunday School-Not Scriptural. Sunday night church-Not scriptural. Pews-Not scriptural.
Now....they aren't UN-Scriptural...they just aren't commanded by the Bible. So my first order of business is to get people to understand that your love of a class...room...program...while noble...may not be in the best interest of a church. It may be, in fact, selfish on your part (not yours...you know what I am saying). So...first and foremost...BE CAREFUL about what you elevate to the level of canon or importance. The New Testament lays out the specific FUNCTIONS of a Church. It is left up to the local church to decide the FORM. When the FORM no longer matches society...the local church MUST change its FORM (while preserving its FUNCTION)...or die.
If a group of people wants to hold on to its FORM...even though the demographics of their community have changed...that is their right. BUT...they cease to be a New Testament church...they cease to be a Great Commission church...and they will eventually need hospice. It is only a matter of time. We buried a church last month because the final 7 members could no longer keep the facility...even though they were at one time a proud....large congregation. They wanted their FUNCTION...and pride. They died a sad...disgraceful death in the eyes of the Kingdom.
They (the hospice groups) just can't change to society. I get tickled when older Baptists (I am one (not older...Baptist)...so I can talk) bemoan the demise of Sunday night church and speak as if its a sign of the end times...even though they are ignorant of the fact that Sunday night church just started after the light bulb was invented. Jesus didn't set it up...and it isn't heresy of you don't go. It's Pharisaical to place a demand on someone (through that subtle pressure that we are known for) for something that is relatively new in the church...something that the Church Fathers new nothing about.
It's nice to go to a place where you feel comfortable. But...remember...many of the things we "do" in the modern, western church would be absolutely foreign to Paul, Peter and John.
So...yes the pastor should have handled it with more grace...but executive pastor's aren't really known for that.
And last but not least...for ALL of you: Just remember...if we were having church like they REALLY had it in the New Testament...you wouldn't be going to some fancy building with Sunday School classes (for your "small group") that sit empty 166 hours out of the week (but you pay for them all 168)....and sitting in a plush pew. You would be meeting with a small group in a house church...and probably meeting at a public place for a cooperate celebration of worship. You wouldn't be praying for an average of 3 minutes during your worship service (which is the #1 reason the church is broken)...you would be praying for hours.
So...just a word of advice for all...when you want to dog on the seeker movement...purpose driven movement...etc...well...let me come to your church for a Sunday...and I will bring my ruler (the New Testament). We all are missing the standard in some way or another.
maybe it's just moi') who/whom 
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