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"Salvation" Discussion - Does One Have To Know Jesus' Name To Be Saved?

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  • "Salvation" Discussion - Does One Have To Know Jesus' Name To Be Saved?

    Originally posted by ETO
    ... he (Hagee) still holds to the Dual Covenant Theology (that Billy Graham holds) when he declared that the Jews are saved through their Old Covenant (Testament) relationship with God thus they don't need Jesus to be saved.
    This will have to do with a thread I hope to start this week concerning Jews, salvation and Israel. I have questions.

    Issachar
    The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

    Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

    Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

  • #2
    Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

    That should be very interesting.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

      Perhaps someone here can enlighten me about the difference between making light of the extermination of 6 million Jews (and forgetting that many more Gentiles [many were Polish] were exterminated by the Nazis as Lewis B pointed out) and having ROFLOL laughs at the expense of the Germans in that despicable movie called "Inglorious Bast*rds"? Thanx.
      Sure. First, where anybody is having "laughs" at the deaths of these people? Nobody is forgetting there were other victims in World War II. The Holocaust is a term used for the direct and purposeful extinction of Jews by a massive propaganda and military machine.

      I'm not quite sure what you're making us responsible for. If the Nazis come off in a bad light, so be it. It started with Kristallnacht and ended after 6 million were dead (plus another 45-to-50 million).



      (erroneously painted) Hagee as anti-Semetic yet those with spiritual discernment ably pointed out that he still holds to the Dual Covenant Theology (that Billy Graham holds) when he declared that the Jews are saved through their Old Covenant (Testament) relationship with God thus they don't need Jesus to be saved
      Is that written in one of his books? I only have a couple. I'd like to know what chapter / page its on. I know his poorly-worded commercial for 'In Defense of Israel" (the commercial was a very bad idea, IMHO) has been used to claim Hagee doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah, which is preposterous. But I have not read that book.
      Last edited by N1095A; 12-14-2009, 05:14 PM.

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      • #4
        Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

        FWIW, neither John Hagee nor Billy Graham ever once so much as hinted that someone doesn't need Jesus to be saved. I'd dare say they would rather die than denounce Jesus like that. What they have said, and I have thought about this MANY times over the years, is that someone doesn't need to know the Name of Jesus, per se, to be saved. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, Moses, etc. etc - had NO idea that the "Name" of their Savior was one day going to be Jesus. Their theory is that someone today doesn't need to know the actual Name, either. They would CERTAINLY agree that Jesus' blood, and His blood ALONE is what saves. Their contention is - since the OT Saints didn't know Who's blood would be shed for them; HOW they would become righteous, neither does someone today. ALL salvation is through Jesus...past, present, future. They trusted in God and that faith saved them. Abraham had faith, IN GOD, and this was counted for righteousness. Read about it in Romans 4:3 and take note that Jesus' Name isn't mentioned (obviously since He hadn't been born yet - OF COURSE I KNOW He existed eternally as the second person of the Godhead but His Name wasn't "Jesus" yet...not to anyone that would have known that).

        I already know someone is going to mis-read what I just said but I can state it no clearer and repeating it is sillyness.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

          Originally posted by Andy View Post
          FWIW, neither John Hagee nor Billy Graham ever once so much as hinted that someone doesn't need Jesus to be saved. I'd dare say they would rather die than denounce Jesus like that. What they have said, and I have thought about this MANY times over the years, is that someone doesn't need to know the Name of Jesus, per se, to be saved. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, Moses, etc. etc - had NO idea that the "Name" of their Savior was one day going to be Jesus. Their theory is that someone today doesn't need to know the actual Name, either. They would CERTAINLY agree that Jesus' blood, and His blood ALONE is what saves. Their contention is - since the OT Saints didn't know Who's blood would be shed for them; HOW they would become righteous, neither does someone today. ALL salvation is through Jesus...past, present, future. They trusted in God and that faith saved them. Abraham had faith, IN GOD, and this was counted for righteousness. Read about it in Romans 4:3 and take note that Jesus' Name isn't mentioned (obviously since He hadn't been born yet - OF COURSE I KNOW He existed eternally as the second person of the Godhead but His Name wasn't "Jesus" yet...not to anyone that would have known that).

          I already know someone is going to mis-read what I just said but I can state it no clearer and repeating it is sillyness.
          Andy, I suggest that you emend your post to read "... Romans 4:3-5 ..."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

            Thanks, brother - I think I'll actually post the verses - and a few more that follow.

            Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
            Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
            Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
            Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
            Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

            I submit that since man is "without excuse" due to God revealing Himself in creation itself that it is at least something worth considering that not ever single human being saved either before or after the cross has known the actual Name of the Jesus that saved them. I'm not going to go so far as to completely agree with this line of thinking but I sure can see how Mr. Graham, Hagee and many others have come to this conclusion. God is JUST and if He puts responsibility on the shoulders of man because of creation alone then I submit that it's possible that a person can see the awesomeness of creation, see how vile they are, fall on their face and (NOT even knowing the word "God") say, "I am a vile person and Whoever created this VASTNESS is greater than I and I am SORRY for my sin-filled life (or however this person would describe their "sin")...please save me from who and what I am" that God is going to pass that person by.

            I could be wrong but.....it's sure something worth contemplating.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

              At one time someone gave me some DVD's of teaching by a reliable born pastor on Judism. He told a story I thought very interesting and tends to say a lot.
              In the Jewish history books there is a story that is repeated in many of the important documents from that time.
              The Jews would take a scapegoat and tie a *red(from blood) ribbon around his *horn and another red ribbon would be attached to the Temple door. The priests would then take the goat out into the desert and throw the goat off a cliff. The people would wait outside the Temple as when the goat was thrown off the cliff, God would turn the ribbon on the door * white as snow to let them know their sins were forgiven. This practice had gone on for a very long time as far as the writers knew.
              *Some speculate this is were Satan being red and with horns, half human half goat like, came from. Even the phrase we hear "white as snow".
              Anyway as the story goes, when they did this after Jesus died and rose again the ribbon never turned white again and eventually the practice was stopped, as what would be the point.
              Anyway, I just thought I would share that story.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                Originally posted by Andy View Post
                FWIW, neither John Hagee nor Billy Graham ever once so much as hinted that someone doesn't need Jesus to be saved. I'd dare say they would rather die than denounce Jesus like that. What they have said, and I have thought about this MANY times over the years, is that someone doesn't need to know the Name of Jesus, per se, to be saved. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, Moses, etc. etc - had NO idea that the "Name" of their Savior was one day going to be Jesus. Their theory is that someone today doesn't need to know the actual Name, either. They would CERTAINLY agree that Jesus' blood, and His blood ALONE is what saves. Their contention is - since the OT Saints didn't know Who's blood would be shed for them; HOW they would become righteous, neither does someone today. ALL salvation is through Jesus...past, present, future. They trusted in God and that faith saved them. Abraham had faith, IN GOD, and this was counted for righteousness. Read about it in Romans 4:3 and take note that Jesus' Name isn't mentioned (obviously since He hadn't been born yet - OF COURSE I KNOW He existed eternally as the second person of the Godhead but His Name wasn't "Jesus" yet...not to anyone that would have known that).

                I already know someone is going to mis-read what I just said but I can state it no clearer and repeating it is sillyness.
                OK, most us know and appreciate a dear Jewish believer in Jesus Christ named Jan Markell. Click the following URL link: http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...298128408.html

                and you'll read her saying (not about Pastor Hagee who's also a Word of Faith Name It Claim It preacher by the way) "I have mixed feelings when it comes to various "Nights to Honor Israel" being held around the country. A local mega-church in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area has had some in recent years. I attended in 2007 and was so bitterly disappointed -- in fact, sickened --that I chose not to go back last week. Forgive me if this takes on a twinge of being harsh. That is not my purpose. I am just passionate that all come to a knowledge of the Savior while there is time. I would also like to know when was the commandment to take the Gospel to the Jew abrogated? (Romans 1:16)

                Both this year and last year the pastor of the Word of Faith mega-church ended the program by telling both Jews and non-Jews in the audience that the Jews do not need to be either evangelized or "saved." They automatically are. Pray tell, where does the Bible say that?? The pastor said that "all Israel will be saved." (Romans 11:26). This pathetic position is borne out of "Dual Covenant Theology." If you understand no other heresy today (and most of us are busy putting out heresy fires as there are so many), pay attention to this one. It could lay the groundwork for saying all sorts of people do not have to be saved to enter Heaven, which is just blatant Universalism.

                "Dual Covenant Theology" teaches that Jews can be saved without believing in the Messiah Jesus. God supposedly has a separate plan for the Jews and thus faith in the Messiah is not necessary.

                The sad fact is that there are those who "love the Jews to death" -- literally. In their zeal to be popular with the Jewish community and in not wanting to "offend" Jews, they do not want to tell them the truth about eternal life. A small band of these people are "Christian Zionists"; however, most in that movement, including this ministry, profoundly reject the "Dual Covenant Theology."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                  From: http://www.americaisraelprophecy.com/johnhagee.html

                  John Hagee’s Tragic Mistake

                  The Houston newspaper quoted Hagee’s own words: "I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith." "In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity." ("San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism," Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, p. 1.)

                  Erwin M. de Castro of the Christian Research Institute wrote John Hagee about his view on the things that he is teaching and received this reply in a letter from him.

                  "There are Jewish people who have relationship with God right now according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:5) ... The Jewish people are judicially blinded to the identity of Messiah... Question: If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see? ... Inasmuch as God has blinded them to the identity of Messiah, targeting the Jewish people for mass evangelism is fruitless"

                  In John Hagee’s book "In Defense of Israel" under the heading "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee declares that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah of the Jewish people "If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? The Jews, knowing of Moses's signs to Israel, asked for a supernatural sign that Jesus was indeed their Messiah. Jesus answered: No sign will be given...except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -- Matthew 12:39-40. Jesus refused to give a sign. He only compared himself with the prophet Jonah, who carried the message of repentance from God to the Gentiles in Nineveh" (p. 137-)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                    Originally posted by Andy View Post
                    ... God is JUST and if He puts responsibility on the shoulders of man because of creation alone then I submit that it's possible that a person can see the awesomeness of creation, see how vile they are, fall on their face and (NOT even knowing the word "God") say, "I am a vile person and Whoever created this VASTNESS is greater than I and I am SORRY for my sin-filled life (or however this person would describe their "sin")...please save me from who and what I am" that God is going to pass that person by.

                    I could be wrong but.....it's sure something worth contemplating.
                    Definitely worth contemplating. I won't speak to what happens to the Jews, I am not qualified; however, what happened (or happens) to those who never heard the word of God, much less the name of Jesus (e.g. from those in the depths of the Amazon to those at the ends of the earth)? Though I know its directed more at the Gentiles, I believe Romans 1:19-21 applies:

                    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

                    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

                    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

                    God is just. Verse 20 really stands out to me here. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (emphasis mine)

                    And yet, though we are saved by grace, and grace alone, we will be held accountable for what we know or learn about God. The more we know, the more we learn, the more accountable we are held. Just as fertilizer increases a harvest, so knowledge of our Lord and the wisedom of his ways is fertilizer to our souls, and hence should increase the "fruit" we produce.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                      The Messianic Jewish Rabbis/Pastors I've ever heard do not believe that however. They believe that since the time of Jesus He was the only way. The only sacrifice acceptable to the Father.
                      There are some out there that believe what you posted but there is also another explanation out there to be, at the least, considered. I would not argue but I will put it forward for consideration.
                      Some believe, as the Jews have been blinded, on purpose, by God Himself, for two thousand years, there could be more plans by God then what we see or understand in the Bible.

                      Statements in the Bible like "all of Israel shall be saved"
                      There is speculation but I think I should say hope, that when God pronounced this in the Bible, there is a chance there is more to it we don't understand, then just "Israel". Based on two thousand years of intentional blindness.
                      Like I say I wouldn't argue the point it is something I don't understand but can ponder and trust God with.
                      Last edited by SAT; 12-14-2009, 07:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                        Some back this theory with Jesus doing something simular between His death and resurrection.
                        Like I say, the people I have heard will openly tell you it is their "hope".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                          http://jewsforjesus.org/blog/20080229-evangelize-jews

                          Jews for Jesus: Why Evangelize the Jews?

                          God's chosen people need Jesus as much as we do.

                          Several mainline denominations support a two-covenant theology, which holds that Judaism and Christianity are parallel, divinely guided paths to God. In addition, in 2002 the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops released a document, "Reflections on Covenant and Mission," affirming that "Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God."

                          Rabbi David Rosen recently told Christianity Today that if someone relates to him "as someone who's going to burn in hell, then I can't really see that as genuine love toward my people and my faith."

                          Some believe that Romans, which states emphatically that "all Israel will be saved," teaches that Jews do not need to hear the Good News from us. (Along those lines, Rosen asks evangelicals to "suspend your proselytizing and allow the Almighty to do whatever the Almighty thinks is the thing to do in his own time.")

                          Some people denigrate the methods and motives of people who evangelize Jews. They claim that focusing ministry on - or "targeting" - Jews is just plain wrong. "Billy Graham didn't target Jews," pastor John Hagee says. "Bill Bright refused to target the Jews. I'm not targeting the Jews."

                          As we continue the good works of dialogue and practical ministries among our Jewish neighbors, let's renew our commitment to also sensitively but forthrightly persuade them to receive the Good News.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                            Like I say ETO, I wouldn't argue it as everyone I know, including myself, believes we need to tell them and I'm overjoyed when I hear about the Jews, especially in Israel, coming to the Lord, but if God does have a plan because He blinded them for two thousand years, that is great with me.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Roseanne Barr Burns “Jew Cookies” Dressed as Hitler

                              In John Hagee’s book "In Defense of Israel" under the heading "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee declares that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah of the Jewish people "If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? The Jews, knowing of Moses's signs to Israel, asked for a supernatural sign that Jesus was indeed their Messiah. Jesus answered: No sign will be given...except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -- Matthew 12:39-40. Jesus refused to give a sign. He only compared himself with the prophet Jonah, who carried the message of repentance from God to the Gentiles in Nineveh" (p. 137-)
                              There's a preciseness of language that is missing here. What's being asked here is a question without an answer.

                              Suppose Israel had received Jesus as Messiah and Jesus never went to the Cross?

                              How would anyone's sins have been forgiven, including the Jews?

                              But I blame Hagee, mostly, for bringing this upon himself by framing it in such context. I think John made a terrible mistake by doing so.

                              However, in your quotation, you have neglected to note that which John Hagee has posted on his website in response. It is available at this moment. I will post the full text. I assume you had no knowledge of this at his website.

                              I met John Hagee 2+ years ago (prior to the release of this book) and he gave me his private fax number (which I will *not* share with anyone, so please don't ask). This was after listening to him preach earlier that evening.

                              Jews must receive Jesus as Savior. However, for the Remnant, during the Great Tribulation, this will not occur until that period of time. Until the time the Church is no longer able to do so, we preach the Gospel of Salvation in Christ. Tribulation saints will continue to do so.
                              Last edited by N1095A; 12-14-2009, 08:26 PM.

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