Debt and the Sin Nature

[SAT]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

True. We were not "accidentally" born when we were.

Issachar, thinking face to face is still better than just the typed word ... even with emoticons. <--- irrelevant; just wanted to use it because I'd love to bike across the country sometime.

Very true. In my humble experience all I can do is share my heart, and hope that is what others are looking for and reading.

[SAT]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

The title "Debt and Sin Nature" has made me think about the most recent events. In light of the "Book of Acts" etc etc etc, and purely speculate about how God sees what we have done.

The guy sitting in a seat at church maybe praying and trying to figure out how to keep a roof over his family's head and feed them at the same time.
Another is trying to figure out if he can cash in on the "cash for clunkers" to buy the extra car they always dreamed of or one for their children.
If God is trying to make a point we could have a lot farther to fall before it's over.

[Guest]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

I have a radical idea for churches! If God is big enough, He should be able to keep them going without their tax exemptions. Then they don't have to cower (which may change under the current administration) when the government threatens to take away the "tax exempt status!" Not aware of how it is handled in other countries? Maybe they are already not tax exempt?

As with all things, what is the Holy Spirit telling us to do or not do?

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

JohnH ... I am very with you on the tax exempt thing. imVho, churches should not have that nor be incorporated. A corporation, by definition, is an entity allowed .... or not, by the state. A part of it is that people get a deduction when giving to a non-profit. My thinking is ... if God is telling you to give to something; do it. If not; don't. The blessings of giving come from our Lord, not the state. The biggest problem with being incorporated; hence, holding tax exempt status, is what you said John ... not totally free to say what may be construed as politically incorrect. Or not be able to say too much that is political, etc., etc. ...

Of course, there is much more than just not being tax exempt of incorporated that the church, as a whole, needs to do ...

Issachar

[SAT]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

A big ouch. Do you guys know what it would take to get the church there?
But that maybe what we are facing. I have to wonder if it is a case of us refusing, so God is going to use our enemies, or I should probably say our only enemy, Satan..........Hmm now the OT is coming to mind. lol

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

Personally, this may sound bizaar, but I have no problem with abolishing all religious tax exemptions. Sure, I enjoy the fact that now my donations are tax deductible, but that's not why I donate. Would church's be hurt financially if the tax deduction were taken away? No doubt. On the other hand, the more hostile this world becomes toward Christians, the less entanglements I want between the govt. and the church. I absolutely think Christians should be involved in the political process, we should hold office and vote and make our voices heard; that's my own opinion.

But I don't want any $ breaks from the govt. because they always come with strings attached. You've got preachers afraid to take a stand on issues for fear of losing their tax exempt status. Cowardice. Let the tax exempt status go by the wayside and let the pulpits of America be free to speak the truth. If the govt. does nothing to "lend the church a hand" they have nothing they can threaten to take away.

link That link is a good thread.

Issachar

[SAT]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

11-23-2005

Excellent memory and thread Iss.

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

Or what if a bank did fail and depositors lost a lot of money ... FDIC is broke and government says, "Here, we will take more taxpayer money and give it to you to cover your loss. We'll up the outpay from $100,000 to $250,000 dollars."

The Coming FDIC Bailout - Wall St. Journal

Issachar

[Glorify Him]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

Jesus summed it up quite simply, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." We can sit and talk about debt--which the Bible teaches against, and greed, which is a sin, or the rest of the topics that have been discussed in this thread. Churches giving up their tax exempt status will not save or spare them what is coming with the NWO and OWR.

I truly believe that we are in a time where God is asking each and every one of us, do we believe what He has promised us in His Word? I know for sure that I am personally being tested by Him in this area. I think it isn't just me, I think it something that He is trying to get across to all of His kids right now.

[JohnR]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

Jesus summed it up quite simply, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." We can sit and talk about debt--which the Bible teaches against, and greed, which is a sin, or the rest of the topics that have been discussed in this thread. Churches giving up their tax exempt status will not save or spare them what is coming with the NWO and OWR.

I truly believe that we are in a time where God is asking each and every one of us, do we believe what He has promised us in His Word? I know for sure that I am personally being tested by Him in this area. I think it isn't just me, I think it something that He is trying to get across to all of His kids right now.

Actually Paul said in 1 Tim 6:10 that "...the love of money is root of all KINDS of evil." Christ in Mat 6:24 said that "You cannot serve God and mammon." But the point is well taken.

What I know right now is that God has called us to go to Brazil on my retirement only. According to the current gov't standards, we are making around $1200/yr above the poverty level and I can tell you, He is taking care of us (even with a 9 yo).

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

I think, because that KJV says "all evil" vs. "all kinds of evil" that it is worth looking into. Of course, in my case, NOT being a scholar in any language let alone Greek or Hebrew, I did a search on the 'net. I found this by David Reagan and it is something I agree with. It won't bother me any if anyone has a means of refuting it. I am intrigued by the his pointing out that Greek does has no indefintite article such as "a" or "an" but when "the" is missing it seems most want to stick in "a" or "an". I'll let someone that really knows the language thing explain it to me if there is something to explain. I will underline the part of the article below, that I am talking about in case someone interested does not have time to read all of it.

Sometimes, a little research into the Greek or Hebrew can aid in determining the English definition of the English word that was chosen by the translators. However, as a whole (in about 99.8% of the cases), a reference to the Greek or Hebrew is made either to correct the English (as in your example above) or to exalt the intelligence of the teacher/preacher. In almost every case, reference to the original languages does not clarify the meaning but actually muddies the water of understanding. Many run to the Greek and Hebrew because they have not taken the time to understand the doctrine in question, the message of the Bible book, or the English language in context.

However, I do not mean to seem extremely harsh. This is what Bible students are taught to do from the time they enter Bible College or Seminary. They learn it as a habit from teachers they respect. Therefore, those who over-emphasize the importance of the original languages have much to support them in their approach. People like me who believe in the preservation of the King James Bible are those ridiculed as ignorant. There are some good people who have just not seen the power of the English.

The interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:10 is an interesting experiment in these two approaches to God's word. We are continually told that the King James wording is wrong and that the passage can be understood by going to the Greek. We are told that the Greek clearly states "a" root. What people are usually not told is that the Greek has no equivalent to the English "a" or "an." The Greek language has no indefinite article.

Greek does have a definite article; an equivalent to our "the." The argument goes that when the "the" is missing, it automatically means "a" or "an." Interestingly enough, this is the same argument used by the Jehovah Witnesses to "prove" that John 1:1 says "the Word was a god." Of course, everyone but the Jehovah's Witnesses know this is foolishness. The problem is that interpretation is much more complicated than learning and applying a few grammatical rules. We would do better to trust the wisdom of the King James translators (who grew up learning the original languages) and the providence of God in preserving His infallible word.

So, what can we do with 1 Timothy 6:10? What does it mean that "the love of money is the root of all evil"? I think we can come to a conclusion by making a few observations. First, the root of all evil is not money, but the love of money. The root is greed; the desire to have money. Second, this love of money is the root of all "evil." We should note that the verse does not say that the love of money is the root of every sin. Rather, it is the root of all evil. Evil is a more general word than the word sin. It refers to the bad things we see in this world. Think of evil in its particular manifestations: the evil of drunkenness, the evil of prostitution, the evil of war, the evil of pornography, etc. Now consider each of these evils. Do they not all find their root in the love of money?

True, someone may become drunk for reasons other than the love of money. But why is this evil so rampant in the world? Is it not because greedy people are trying to make a buck on this evil? The root of every bar and dive in every part of the world is the love of money. The same could be said of war, prostitution, pornography, and much more. Dig deep enough into a societal evil; dig all the way down to the root of why that evil is so rampant in the world, and you will find the love of money.

The context of 1 Timothy 6:10 adds evidence to this conclusion. Verse 9 refers to those who because of their desire to be rich, "fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." Their desire for money leads them into other evils; evils like lying, cheating, bribing, and more. They are more susceptible to many lustful temptations because of their love of money. Follow the chapter back a little more and you find those who get into perverse disputings and deny the truth because they suppose that "gain is godliness" (1 Timothy 6:5). Timothy is warned to withdraw from such people. Perhaps they are preachers who change their message in order to keep the crowds and their salary. This is an evil and its root is the love of money.

It is not as difficult as many think it to be. The love of money is still the root of all evil.

Reagan, David

source

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

... God is asking each and every one of us, do we believe what He has promised us in His Word? I know for sure that I am personally being tested by Him in this area. I think it isn't just me, I think it something that He is trying to get across to all of His kids right now.

Yes!

Issachar

[JohnR]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

I think, because that KJV says "all evil" vs. "all kinds of evil" that it is worth looking into. Of course, in my case, NOT being a scholar in any language let alone Greek or Hebrew, I did a search on the 'net. I found this by David Reagan and it is something I agree with. It won't bother me any if anyone has a means of refuting it. I am intrigued by the his pointing out that Greek does has no indefintite article such as "a" or "an" but when "the" is missing it seems most want to stick in "a" or "an". I'll let someone that really knows the language thing explain it to me if there is something to explain. I will underline the part of the article below, that I am talking about in case someone interested does not have time to read all of it.

source

Issachar

Then I stand corrected A couple of notes from my NET bible and I believe they agree with Reagan.

This could be taken to mean "a root," but the phrase "of all evils" clearly makes it definite. This seems to be not entirely true to life (some evils are unrelated to love of money), but it should be read as a case of hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point more strongly).

And

Many translations render this "of all kinds of evil," especially to allow for the translation "a root" along with it. But there is no parallel for taking a construction like this to mean "all kinds of" or "every kind of." The normal sense is "all evils."

[Issachar]

Re: Debt and the Sin Nature

Thanks John. Like all of us here, when I believe something, I like to make certain as much as is possible, that it is true. So, I'm always trying to do that. One of the great things about Christian discussion boards is that we can put out there, anything we think is true (within board(s) rules) and get various points of view.

On this matter about "all evil" vs. "all kinds of evil", we know that the Holy Spirit, at the time of inspiring the author, had something particular in mind. THAT is what I want to know; as does all of us here.

Issachar