Rebuilding the Temple

[Guest]

If this is correct, it may be possible to rebuild the temple today........

http://www.askelm.com/index.asp

The Present platform on which the dome of the rock and mosque sits may not have been where the Hebrew temple was...... Historically, its size and location is all wrong..... The ancient temple platform was a square platform 600 foot on a side.
The wall on the South East corner was over 450 feet high and was located in the very bottom of the Kidron valley...... The center of the square was build over the only spring in the area, the Gihon, which is still there today.

Josephus wrote about this in his history as did others.....Wars of the Jews--book 5 -ch 5 (187/8)

[Lay it to Heart]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

We cannot rely on Josephus. What did God say? When people lied before the court their testimony was to be thrown out and they were to receive the penalty that the person was to get that they testified against. They didn't go ahead and use other parts of the perjurer's testimony that wasn't proven wrong. Josephus can't being used by a Christian for anything.

[Guest]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

I study history....Every secular historian writes using the sources he had available with the prejudices of his age and from his point of view....... does this mean that we are to toss out all the history books??? common sense would dictate the opposite. There are several different views of American history for example. Right now today there is a vast difference on how to interpret what happened. Just listen to the reverend Wright or Farrakhan for example. Are they all wrong?

To say that Josephus should be thrown out is not an option. where he made errors, note them. Otherwise he wrote a fascinating history of a time when there are only too few sources. Would you also throw out Homer, where there are several versions of the Iliad and Odyssey ?? or Plutarch or the great historian Herodotus who did in places
detour in fable? No of course not.......

[Glorify Him]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

You are right, Lewis. This theory though has been around for at least 20 years. I think I first heard it based on the discovery of the location of Solomon's Temple's stables. I think they could start building it again tomorrow--man would the Pallys hit the roof!

[Andy]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

I think it's noteworthy that God told John NOT to measure the court of the temple as it has been given to the Gentiles to trod down for 42 months.

Seems to make this even more of a possibility.

[Glorify Him]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Andy, imho, you have hit upon a key point!

[GSheff]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

We cannot rely on Josephus. What did God say? When people lied before the court their testimony was to be thrown out and they were to receive the penalty that the person was to get that they testified against. They didn't go ahead and use other parts of the perjurer's testimony that wasn't proven wrong. Josephus can't being used by a Christian for anything.

Jewish archaeologists spent many years searching for Herod's tomb, based on the writings of Josephus. http://www.thestar.com/News/article/211378
I wonder why they chose to believe him in this instance, and not concerning the Temple. In the case of the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple, his writings are confirmed by at least one other source.

[SAT]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Dr Paul L Maier
http://www.wmich.edu/history/faculty...les/maier.html

An authority on the first-century Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, Maier translated from Greek a new full-color edition of his writings, entitled Josephus – The Essential Works (Kregel, 1995). A similar book followed in 1999: Eusebius – The Church History (Kregel), a new translation and commentary on the first Christian historian. Several million Maier books are now in print in a dozen languages.

http://www.tobiascom.com/dr-paul-mai...graphy-30.html

He is apparently a leading expert and seems to give Josephus a great deal credibility.

[Lay it to Heart]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Josephus is not credible. It's not just error. It's outright lies. For example when Josephus said Moses wrote a lie into the Bible, that was intentional. He libeled Moses and blasphemed God, who preserved that word. In essence he made God out to be a liar. If you were to use Josephus how would you know what is truth and what is an error or a lie?

[SAT]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

PS
Dr Paul L Maier is apparently a Christian.

[SAT]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Josephus is not credible. It's not just error. It's outright lies. For example when Josephus said Moses wrote a lie into the Bible, that was intentional. He libeled Moses and blasphemed God, who preserved that word. In essence he made God out to be a liar. If you were to use Josephus how would you know what is truth and what is an error or a lie?

Yikes. He was a historian from the time of our Lord. I thought Roman historians stuck to recording. Wow. Well he certainly had erroneous views of his history.

[JohnR]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Josephus is not credible. It's not just error. It's outright lies. For example when Josephus said Moses wrote a lie into the Bible, that was intentional. He libeled Moses and blasphemed God, who preserved that word. In essence he made God out to be a liar. If you were to use Josephus how would you know what is truth and what is an error or a lie?

LITH, I know you have done research on this, but have you compared what Josephus wrote with how the LXX reads? Do you think Moses wrote of his own death or was it possibly Joshua (or someone else) writing the closing chapter?

[GSheff]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

Josephus is not credible. It's not just error. It's outright lies. For example when Josephus said Moses wrote a lie into the Bible, that was intentional. He libeled Moses and blasphemed God, who preserved that word. In essence he made God out to be a liar. If you were to use Josephus how would you know what is truth and what is an error or a lie?

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again
the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

This is not credible? This is an outright lie?

Josephus was a Roman citizen, and Titus's advisor and translator. He was highly trusted by the Emperor. He may have been a turncoat, he may not have believed in God, but he was a historian, who spent his latter years churning out volumes of manuscripts.

"Josephus ben Matthias is the best known ancient Jewish historian. He was born in 37 CE, only a few years after Jesus' execution. Josephus was well educated in biblical law and history. On his mother's side he was a descendant of the Hasmonean Kings. On his father's side he came from a priestly family. Josephus counted among his friends Agrippa II. His life took some dramatic turns in 66 CE, when the Jews in Palestine revolted against Roman rule. Although Josephus was only 29 at the time, he was given command of the Jewish forces in Galilee. His forces were no match for the Romans and were utterly defeated. Josephus survived, however, and became an advisor to the Roman general Vespasian by prophesying that the general would become the Roman Emperor. Not so amazingly, in 69 CE Vespasian did become Emperor. As a result, Josephus' stock went up and Vespasian returned to Rome to run the Empire. Vespasian's son, Titus, was given the responsibility of completing the war against the Jews. Titus used Josephus as an interpreter and spokesman to the Jewish forces in Jerusalem. Josephus was berated by the Jews of Jerusalem after he repeatedly called on them to surrender to the Roman forces. Eventually, in 70 CE, the Romans crushed the revolt and destroyed Jerusalem.
Josephus returned with Titus to Rome, where he was awarded for his service with a house and a pension. With time and resources, Josephus turned to writing of history. In the 70s, he wrote Jewish Wars, which provided a chronicle of the wars of the Jewish people. He thereafter in the 90s wrote a much broader history of the Jewish people, Jewish Antiquities." http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is never a good idea.

This is a good read about the man.
http://www.livius.org/jo-jz/josephus/josephus.htm

[Andy]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

I would tend to agree, Glenn. There are many secular sources we use out here. Just because someone isn't a Christian doesn't mean everything they said/say is of no value to those of us that are as many Historians, Astronomers, Scientists, etc were/are not believers...but we don't discount everything they say or write. We just have to be discerning on what we're reading.

[Lay it to Heart]

Re: Rebuilding the Temple

LITH, I know you have done research on this, but have you compared what Josephus wrote with how the LXX reads? Do you think Moses wrote of his own death or was it possibly Joshua (or someone else) writing the closing chapter?

John I appreciate that you mention this now. I also recall you have brought up before. It is a good thing to consider. No, I have not done a detailed check of the LXX. If the LXX is different from the Masoretic text which one is wrong? They both cannot be correct. How can you preserve Hebrew in Greek anyway? God said he would preserve his word. The alliteration in Psalm 119, for example, cannot be translated into another language. I do not believe you can preserve Hebrew in Greek. So avoiding the years of difference between the Hebrew and Greek, I would like to post areas where Josephus contradicts the word of God concerning various facts, events or background information. Josephus shows that he cannot be trusted to portray an accurate version of what the life and times of antiquity were like.


Concerning the Garden of Eden, Antiquities 1.1.3 says, "Now the garden was watered by one river,(3) which ran round about the whole earth, and was parted into four parts." Genesis 2:10 says, "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads." It does not say it watered the whole earth.


Antiquities 1.2.2 says, "And when Cain had traveled over many countries, he, with his wife, built a city, named Nod,…" The Bible does not say Cain traveled over many countries. There were not countries at that time. The Bible says Nod was on the east of Eden and not separated from it. Cain built a city named Enoch in the land of Nod, not a city called Nod. (Genesis 4:16-17)


Antiquities 1.6.1 starts off, "Now they were the grandchildren of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names." In 1.6.1 Josephus also says Tharsus was called Cilicia. In Antiquities Book 11 Chapter 8 Section 3 Josephus refers to Taurus as a Cilician mountain. Josephus has these nations starting off in Turkey. The ark may have rested on the mountains of Ararat but the people headed down to settle Babylon first. Genesis 11:1-9 tells us that the nations were divided after the Babylon was founded, not before.


Antiquities 1.6.3 says, "And when Noah was made sensible of what had been done, he prayed for prosperity to his other sons; but for Ham, he did not curse him, by reason of his nearness in blood, but cursed his prosperity:" Genesis 9:25 says, "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." Noah cursed Ham's son and not Ham's prosperity.


Antiquities 1.11.4 says concerning the destruction of Sodom, "God then cast a thunderbolt upon the city, and set it on fire, with its inhabitants; and laid waste the country with the like burning…". Genesis 19:24 says, " Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;". Lighting did not come from the sky and start a fire. Fire and brimstone came from the sky.


Antiquities 1.11.4 says, "But Lot's wife continually turning back to view the city as she went from it, and being too nicely inquisitive what would become of it, although God had forbidden her so to do, was changed into a pillar of salt." The Bible only talks about her turning once. Genesis 19:17 says, "And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed." Lot's wife did not get multiple chances as Josephus indicates. Josephus typically adds to, and twists God's word.


Antiquities 1.13.2 tells us the mountain where Abraham was to sacrifice his son "was that mountain upon which king David afterwards built the temple." Solomon built the temple, not David.


Antiquities 2.11.1 says that Egyptians plotted to kill Moses as result of their envy and fear. When Moses learned about plots to kill him, he fled Egypt. Instead, Exodus 2:11-15 tells us that Moses fled when it was found out that he killed an Egyptian.


Antiquities 4.8.48 says, "Now as he went thence to the place where he was to vanish out of their sight, they all followed after him weeping; but Moses beckoned with his hand to those that were remote from him, and bade them stay behind in quiet, while he exhorted those that were near to him that they would not render his departure so lamentable. Whereupon they thought they ought to grant him that favor, to let him depart according as he himself desired; so they restrained themselves, though weeping still towards one another. All those who accompanied him were the senate, and Eleazar the high priest, and Joshua their commander. Now as soon as they were come to the mountain called Abarim, (which is a very high mountain, situate over against Jericho, and one that affords, to such as are upon it, a prospect of the greatest part of the excellent land of Canaan,) he dismissed the senate; and as he was going to embrace Eleazar and Joshua, and was still discoursing with them, a cloud stood over him on the sudden, and he disappeared in a certain valley, although he wrote in the holy books that he died, which was done out of fear, lest they should venture to say that, because of his extraordinary virtue, he went to God." Moses was not accompanied by anyone to the place where he died. Deuteronomy 34:5-6 says, "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." If any one had accompanied Moses, they would have known where he was buried. The Bible does not say that anyone accompanied Moses.


Antiquities 4.8.48 talks about Moses' death. Josephus writes that Moses did not die but vanished. Deuteronomy 34:5 says Moses died. Deuteronomy 34:6 says God buried Moses.


Antiquities 7.14.2 has David telling Solomon that he has saved 10,000 talents of gold for the temple. 1 Chronicles 22:14 tells us the amount was 100,000 talents of gold.


Antiquities 7.14.2 has David telling Solomon that he has saved 100,000 talents of silver for the temple. 1 Chronicles 22:14 tells us the amount was 1,000,000 talents of silver.


Antiquities 8.12.1 says Asa the king of Jerusalem had three hundred thousand troops from the tribe of Judah and two hundred and fifty thousand out of the tribe of Benjamin when Zerah the Ethiopian came to fight him. 2 Chronicles 14:8 says Asa had "two hundred and fourscore thousand" or 280,000. Josephus is short 30,000 men.


Antiquities 10.8.4 says, "And after this manner have the kings of David's race ended their lives, being in number twenty-one, until the last king, who all together reigned five hundred and fourteen years, and six months, and ten days; of whom Saul, who was their first king, retained the government twenty years, though he was not of the same tribe with the rest." Athaliah reigned as a queen but not as a king so she is not counted. The Bible tells us there were twenty two kings:
1. Saul
2. David
3. Solomon
4. Rehoboam
5. Abijam
6. Asa
7. Jehoshaphat
8. Jehoram
9. Ahaziah
10. Jehoash
11. Amaziah
12. Azariah
13. Jotham
14. Ahaz
15. Hezekiah
16. Manasseh
17. Amon
18. Josiah
19. Jehoahaz
20. Jehoiakim
21. Jehoiachin
22. Zedekiah


In Antiquities 18.3.3 Josephus writes, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." Josephus erred in this account. He says "those that loved him at the first did not forsake him". This is not true. Where were his disciples? They fled. Matthew 26:31 says, "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.;" Josephus goes on, "...; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;" This is inaccurate. Jesus only appeared to some of those who loved him, not all. Josephus also says, "... as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." There are not ten thousand prophecies concerning Jesus. He also says, "And the tribe of Christians,..." Christians are not a tribe. Tribes are genetically linked together. The Bible says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) Salvation is not limited to a certain race. In one paragraph there are at least four errors from Josephus.


War of the Jews 1.2.5 says that King David was the richest of all kings. In 2 Chronicles 1:12 God told Solomon, "Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like." In Ecclesiastes 2:9 Solomon said, "So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me." David was not the richest King.


Against Apion 1.1.1 says, "Those Antiquities … are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue". Since Josephus' chronology directly contradicts the Bible, it is incorrect to claim that his history was taken out of the sacred books or that he translated them.


Against Apion 1.1.8 reads, "For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life." Against Apion 1.8 claims there are only 22 sacred books. There were 39, not 22.


Against Apion 1.1.8 claims there are only 13 books of the prophets in the sacred writings. At that time there were seventeen; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hoshea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. If it is thought that the history books were written by the prophets and that is what Josephus is talking about, then the number of historical books would have to be greater because some of the prophetical books include history such as Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. The thirteen books of history in the Bible which include Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther and Job.


Against Apion 1.1.8 claims the sacred books contain "the traditions of the origin of mankind". This is not correct. A tradition is established by man and is not necessarily true. God established the Bible. A tradition that relates to history is something that is thought to be true but cannot be proven. God's word is true, and for those who believe the Bible, does not need to be established.


Against Apion 1.1.10 says, "…, I have translated the Antiquities out of our sacred books;" Since Josephus did not recognize the full cannon of the Old Testament, because he has many errors and because Antiquities carries much extra-Biblical information, to say that he translated the works of the sacred books is incorrect.


Against Apion 1.1.20 lists the last king of Babylon as Nabonnedus. Giving the works of Josephus the benefit of the doubt this would be another name for Belshazzar, the son of Nebuchadnezzar. Regardless of the possibility of a different name, the account of Josephus has the last king of Babylon losing his battle to Cyrus and being given Carmania to live in where he spent the rest of his life. The Bible says that Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans was slain that night. "That night" was when the Medes and Persians took over Babylon (Daniel 5:30). Belshazzar did not die of old age.


Against Apion 1.1.31 says, "It now remains that I debate with Manetho about Moses. Now the Egyptians acknowledge him to have been a wonderful and a divine person;…" The word "acknowledge" would suggest that Moses was divine and the Egyptians agreed. Moses was not divine.

http://www.layittoheart.com/josephusvsbible.html