The descension from heaven

[prayze]

1Thess. 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Same verse, another thread.

First let me say I believe in a pre-trib rapture, before someone jumps to another conclusion. Secondly it is not what I want to debate in this thread.
Thirdly, again it is not what mainstream christianity believes, so again I am probably the only one on this board who believes it. Nevertheless I want to share this thought.

I believe that the Lord's descension from heaven mentioned in this verse is referring to the end of the 70th week when He returns on the mount of Olives.

My question: is there any other Scripture that confirms that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture?

[Guest]

Re: The descension from heaven

The pre trib rapture position requires that this verse is about a pre trib rapture
more than that I cant say as we are not allowed to discuss the subject on wedg

Andy has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOng pitchfork

[JohnR]

Re: The descension from heaven

Same verse, another thread.

First let me say I believe in a pre-trib rapture, before someone jumps to another conclusion. Secondly it is not what I want to debate in this thread.
Thirdly, again it is not what mainstream christianity believes, so again I am probably the only one on this board who believes it. Nevertheless I want to share this thought.

I believe that the Lord's descension from heaven mentioned in this verse is referring to the end of the 70th week when He returns on the mount of Olives.

My question: is there any other Scripture that confirms that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture?

Prayze, it is good to see that you believe in the pre-trib rapture because I would have responded in a totally different manner.

We need to look at the context of what this verse is taken from, so here are the surrounding verses:

¹³ But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. ¹⁴ For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁵ For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Th 4:13-18). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Part of the problem the Thessalonicans were having was that they were afraid that they had missed the rapture. In this passage Paul lays out the order of events, the dead will rise first followed by those who remain.

Considering Christ sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 70th week (end of the trib), for this passage (you pointed to 1 Thess 4:16) to be at the that time, we would have to understand it to be a parallel passage with Rev 19 and thereby a post-trib rapture passage (which btw, posties do use).

I say this little bit not to belittle but to encourage one to look at the full context of the verse and not at the verse alone. There is one other position which I believe is completely in error which would make sense in the way you are presenting this and that being a "split rapture", where part of the Bride, Christ's Body is raptured pre-trib and the remaining part post-trib. Talk about dividing the Body.

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

Prayze, it is good to see that you believe in the pre-trib rapture because I would have responded in a totally different manner.

We need to look at the context of what this verse is taken from, so here are the surrounding verses:Part of the problem the Thessalonicans were having was that they were afraid that they had missed the rapture. In this passage Paul lays out the order of events, the dead will rise first followed by those who remain.

Considering Christ sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 70th week (end of the trib), for this passage (you pointed to 1 Thess 4:16) to be at the that time, we would have to understand it to be a parallel passage with Rev 19 and thereby a post-trib rapture passage (which btw, posties do use).

I say this little bit not to belittle but to encourage one to look at the full context of the verse and not at the verse alone. There is one other position which I believe is completely in error which would make sense in the way you are presenting this and that being a "split rapture", where part of the Bride, Christ's Body is raptured pre-trib and the remaining part post-trib. Talk about dividing the Body.

Hello John,

I've already said I do believe in a pre-trib rapture. Now I say, I don't believe in a split rapture. I believe the complete Church will be raptured before or at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. Still I do believe, the descension of the Lord is referring to the end of the 70th week. I have not found another verse that confirms that Christ will be descending from heaven at the rapture. What I do read is that we will be caught up, and gathered together unto Him. That we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Scripture confirms in many places that the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the 70th week and that His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives at the end of the 70th week. But is there any other verse confirming that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture? Let me show you what I mean and how I think we should read this verse by changing one word.

1Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: but* the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

* the KJV says "and".

Do you think it is possible we should read these verses this way?

[JohnR]

Re: The descension from heaven

Hello John,

I've already said I do believe in a pre-trib rapture. Now I say, I don't believe in a split rapture. I believe the complete Church will be raptured before or at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. Still I do believe, the descension of the Lord is referring to the end of the 70th week. I have not found another verse that confirms that Christ will be descending from heaven at the rapture. What I do read is that we will be caught up, and gathered together unto Him. That we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Scripture confirms in many places that the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the 70th week and that His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives at the end of the 70th week. But is there any other verse confirming that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture? Let me show you what I mean and how I think we should read this verse by changing one word.



Do you think it is possible we should read these verses this way?

First let me ask what translation are you using or are you translating it yourself? I'm trying to find a translation which translates kai as "but" rather than "and" in this passage.

I think the key here is where does the Lord descend to? There is no indication that He sets foot on the earth at this stage. I know many non pre-tribbers (let alone non-dispies) wish it did say He descends to the earth, but He only descends into the air (ἀέρα):

ἀέρα· (ἀήρ)

• noun, accusative, masculine, singular
• "air"

• ἀήρ, έρος m air; ethereal region above the earth, space (Eph 2.2)

whereas the references to His setting foot on the Mount of Olives is explicit.

I'm not sure why you are trying to make this fit the end of the 70th week rather than the pre-trib rapture. I believe you are trying to force the reference to His descending here to be a full descent to the earth, setting foot on the Mount of Olives is just that, forcing the context. That context is that the Lord is in the air and we will be caught up to meet Him in the air, not on the earth.

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

First let me ask what translation are you using or are you translating it yourself? I'm trying to find a translation which translates kai as "but" rather than "and" in this passage.

I used the KJV. I think the word "and" is a good translation. However to make my self clear and to show how I understand these verses I changed "and" in "but". This was for me the easiest way to explain myself. This is what the Strong dictionary says about the word "kai"

G2532 (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary {particle} having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force;
{and} also6
{even} so6
{then} {too} etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - {and} {also} {both} {but} {even} {for} {if} {indeed} {likewise} {moreover} {or} {so} {that} {then} {therefore} {when} {yea} yet.

Most of the time "kai" has been translated with "and". In some instances it is translated with "but", but it happens only a few times and in some of those instances it could have been easily translated with "and" as well. So it is not very usual to translate it with "but". What is more usual is that it is translated with "also". If the translators had chosen to translate "kai" with "also", these verses would have said this:

1Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: also* the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

* I have changed it here as another possible translation, the KJV translates the Greek "kai" with "and" in this verse.

I think the key here is where does the Lord descend to? There is no indication that He sets foot on the earth at this stage. I know many non pre-tribbers (let alone non-dispies) wish it did say He descends to the earth, but He only descends into the air (ἀέρα):whereas the references to His setting foot on the Mount of Olives is explicit.

For a long time I also believed the Lord would be descending into the air at the time of the rapture. But I could not find any other Scripture that confirms this thought. I believe He will not descend at all at the time of the rapture. The rapture will not be a visible event for the world. They will not see the Lord descending from heaven and they will not see us ascending into heaven. What happens in my opinion is that we will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. In a split second we'll be caught up unto God and His throne. I believe the expression "meeting in the air" is used, because we will return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Just like verse 14 says:

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The word "meeting" is used to say, that we will go to Him (to heaven) first, in order to return with Him at the end of the 70th week, when He will be descending from heaven (verse 16) and we will appear with Him in glory.

From other Scriptures we get confirmation that the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the 70th week. And from other Scriptures we know that we will be with Him at that time. But I have not found any confirmation from other Scriptures that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture.

I'm not sure why you are trying to make this fit the end of the 70th week rather than the pre-trib rapture. I believe you are trying to force the reference to His descending here to be a full descent to the earth, setting foot on the Mount of Olives is just that, forcing the context. That context is that the Lord is in the air and we will be caught up to meet Him in the air, not on the earth.

I hope I explained well enough why I believe it is referring to the end of the 70th week. And I hope I explained well enough that I am not trying to force the context, verse 14 was already referring to the end of the 70th week.

If another Scripture is confirming that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture then I am willing to change my mind. But for now, I believe His descension referring to the end of the 70th week, is the better explanation.

[JohnR]

Re: The descension from heaven

I used the KJV. I think the word "and" is a good translation. However to make my self clear and to show how I understand these verses I changed "and" in "but". This was for me the easiest way to explain myself. This is what the Strong dictionary says about the word "kai"



Most of the time "kai" has been translated with "and". In some instances it is translated with "but", but it happens only a few times and in some of those instances it could have been easily translated with "and" as well. So it is not very usual to translate it with "but". What is more usual is that it is translated with "also". If the translators had chosen to translate "kai" with "also", these verses would have said this:





For a long time I also believed the Lord would be descending into the air at the time of the rapture. But I could not find any other Scripture that confirms this thought. I believe He will not descend at all at the time of the rapture. The rapture will not be a visible event for the world. They will not see the Lord descending from heaven and they will not see us ascending into heaven. What happens in my opinion is that we will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. In a split second we'll be caught up unto God and His throne. I believe the expression "meeting in the air" is used, because we will return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Just like verse 14 says:



The word "meeting" is used to say, that we will go to Him (to heaven) first, in order to return with Him at the end of the 70th week, when He will be descending from heaven (verse 16) and we will appear with Him in glory.

From other Scriptures we get confirmation that the Lord will descend from heaven at the end of the 70th week. And from other Scriptures we know that we will be with Him at that time. But I have not found any confirmation from other Scriptures that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture.



I hope I explained well enough why I believe it is referring to the end of the 70th week. And I hope I explained well enough that I am not trying to force the context, verse 14 was already referring to the end of the 70th week.

If another Scripture is confirming that the Lord will descend from heaven at the time of the rapture then I am willing to change my mind. But for now, I believe His descension referring to the end of the 70th week, is the better explanation.

Oh, you explained yourself well enough. Your answer to the following should make it much clearer though.

Who are the dead in Christ and who are the "we who remain ...", and where are they just before they are caught up (ἁρπαγησόμεθα)?

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

Oh, you explained yourself well enough. Your answer to the following should make it much clearer though.

Who are the dead in Christ and who are the "we who remain ...", and where are they just before they are caught up (ἁρπαγησόμεθα)?

The dead in Christ, are brothers and sisters which are asleep, they are in heaven. We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, are those of the Church that are alive at the time of the rapture and they are on earth at the time of the rapture.

[fmcginn]

Re: The descension from heaven

There shall be lots of air pollution and lack of oxygen on the way up you think? Not to mention the women in labor w/ child not have yet had the child 1/2 way, For example out of curiosity, if she isn't saved would that baby be caught up too in the rapture or not being half way born?
An Christian woman is having a c-section and her uterus is laying on the exterior of her upper body ( like mine was 2wice) would she be caught up w/ the uterus hanging by her side w/ the baby inside it?
Some things to think about how all that will work out -- OR a man in surgery, the Dr. is unsaved and the person having surgery is put under and His chest opened up what then would happen?

Ok this may sound weired, but Have any of you thought of such things?

I could bring up more possibilities but you get my point I'm sure.

[sojourner52]

Re: The descension from heaven

fmcginn,
we will not go up in these bodies as they are - we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

if you believe an unborn child is a living human being, why would he/she not be raptured too?

as for the dr operating on a patient, the dr raptured - they are not in that room alone. someone could take over or call in another doctor. if the patient is the only one in the room who is not a christian, then he has a problem! but even that is not as bad as being left behind.

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

There shall be lots of air pollution and lack of oxygen on the way up you think? Not to mention the women in labor w/ child not have yet had the child 1/2 way, For example out of curiosity, if she isn't saved would that baby be caught up too in the rapture or not being half way born?
An Christian woman is having a c-section and her uterus is laying on the exterior of her upper body ( like mine was 2wice) would she be caught up w/ the uterus hanging by her side w/ the baby inside it?
Some things to think about how all that will work out -- OR a man in surgery, the Dr. is unsaved and the person having surgery is put under and His chest opened up what then would happen?

Ok this may sound weired, but Have any of you thought of such things?

I could bring up more possibilities but you get my point I'm sure.

What we know is that we all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye and that we'll be caught up unto God and His throne. Much more I can not say about it, that would be guessing. I don't know.

[JohnR]

Re: The descension from heaven

The dead in Christ, are brothers and sisters which are asleep, they are in heaven. We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, are those of the Church that are alive at the time of the rapture and they are on earth at the time of the rapture.

Then I would say you have a problem with how you are trying to interpret this passage. If you see His descent as the second coming in verse 17, you have the "we who remain..." group being caught up to Him in the same event. This would put your interpretation in the post-trib camp. Either that or you have to twist scripture to make anything else fit.

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

Then I would say you have a problem with how you are trying to interpret this passage. If you see His descent as the second coming in verse 17, you have the "we who remain..." group being caught up to Him in the same event. This would put your interpretation in the post-trib camp. Either that or you have to twist scripture to make anything else fit.

Please explain, why would I have the "we who remain..." group being caught up to Him in the same event?

[JohnR]

Re: The descension from heaven

Please explain, why would I have the "we who remain..." group being caught up to Him in the same event?

Here is verse 17 in the KJV

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (1 Th 4:17). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Where would you divide this into two different events (rapture and 2d coming)?

I see where we join those who were dead (or asleep) in Christ (v16) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. If the rapture occurs pre-trib (and I believe it does), how can you force two events (you said you believe the Lord is descending to the Mount of Olives in this verse) separated by about 7 years?

[prayze]

Re: The descension from heaven

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Here is verse 17 in the KJVWhere would you divide this into two different events (rapture and 2d coming)?

I see where we join those who were dead (or asleep) in Christ (v16) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. If the rapture occurs pre-trib (and I believe it does), how can you force two events (you said you believe the Lord is descending to the Mount of Olives in this verse) separated by about 7 years?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I believe the first part of verse 16 is referring to the descension of the Lord at the end of the 70th week, then the second part of verse 16 "and the dead in Christ..." and verse 17 in my opinion explain that before our descension with Him at the end of the 70th week we will be caught up to heaven (7 years earlier).